mancz han not yet announced whether he'll run for re-election in 2024. there have been talk he might run for the white house instead. he's being non-committal. mike, your quick reaction to this news here. >> yeah. it's all about, what is desantis' move -- what is manchin's move. knowing for sure if he ran for president as an independent. for sure he's talked about it, dreamed about it. that would be key to republicans getting that seat. >> as much as manchin frustrates a lot of democrats, probably the underdog and a seat they could lose. fascinating to watch. mike, thank you for being with us. sure i'll see you out there. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" on this friday morning and all week long. "morning joe" starts right now. lindsey graham, the progressive from south carolina -- no. he's a progressive, but he's got some good things too.

okay? >> i'm sorry i'm so upset, but, please help president trump. if you can afford $5 or $10, if you can't afford $1, that's fine. just pray. >> progressive from south carolina. >> help this man, donald j. trump, they're trying to drain him dry. >> he's a progressive. >> if you got any money to give, give it. >> but he's got some good things, too. >> go tonight. give the president some money to fight this bull [ bleep ]. >> lindsey graham the progressive from south carolina. >> you know, it's like my southern mom, no good deed goes unpunished. >> i mean if you're a dog trainer and you can make a dog ill that quickly you're a successful dog trainer. you're a genius. >> he'll be back, by the way. lindsey graham will be back. you scream at him and he's still loyal. willie, i would love to show you the front of the paper of -- can

you believe this? this is a paper of record. it's "morning joe." quickly what is this? front page. come on. put that down. i guess it's "sports illustrated" time, refb. >> reserve. >> forgive them for what they do. >> what they do. >> what's going on? >> you know. you can -- it's just that time of year, for the -- for the -- the "new york post." >> moving right along. >> so when new york city, willie, you know, i'm a simple country lawyer. a caveman lawyer, some people have said as well, but even i didn't understand -- >> a mediocre caveman lawyer. literally right with that mediocre -- >> every day. >> every single day. >> sweatshirts.

stunningly superficial ones. we need your mediocre. that's a good one. >> her father calls me stunningly -- a mountain of immediateocracy. who's should i be more insulted by? >> we need merch. we do. again, i'm a simple country lawyer, but i would think that an attorney in new york city would not be screaming at the woman who is saying his client raped her, and time and time again, as e. jean carroll was telling the jury this just horrific story about how she was raped, joe tacopina was berating her, yelling at her. the judge repeatedly had to call him off.

it was -- it's not -- this rape -- this trial involving a possible rape, not going well for donald trump. >> well, yeah. the accounts from inside the courtroom from people there yesterday is that joe tacopina, familiar figure representing donald trump in the other case in manhattan, effectively harassing e. jean carroll on the stand as she told the story of what she says happened to her in the 1990s in that dressing room with donald trump and the judge stopping to add monic tacopina saying you'll have time to make a closing argument. now is not the time for that. sort of him chiming in and interrupting e. jean carroll throughout in a way the judge thought was argumentative. by most accounts ugly in that courtroom yesterday. >> and neither a country lawyer nor mediocre like me. so perhaps you can just -- verify for our friends at home,

danny, not good to yell at somebody who could have been a rape victim on the stand. >> i've cross-examined victims like this. it is really, really difficult and you have to be really careful. one thing to examine a corroborating witness. then lay on the fireworks. cross-examining a victim of sexual assault you have to be extra careful. you still have to explore things like their ability to perceive. their memory. whether or not they're motivated by something else. >> right. >> of course, in this case, and it's not a fun thing to talk about, but you have to explore why she took so long to report this. and we know now that victims of sexual assault often never report because of fear of reprival. >> easy. elise, she was scared. women, victims of sexual assault of rape that will not respond because they don't want to get up on a stand and be abused by

the rapist's attorney. >> so little incentive for women to put themselves through that and to go on the stand. there's so many questions of judgment surrounding donald trump's choice to attack his accuser in this, throughout this process, but i just -- number one, danny, why doesn't he have a female lawyer? >> that would be a good strategy. you're absolutely right. >> not even showing up. >> yes. in a civil case you don't have to, but my theory here is that trump is essentially conceding this battle because he knows he already had a deposition. that's when you sit down, under oath, you give a wide-ranging, essentially an interview but you're locked into your testimony. the way trump's team probably sees it far better to take my deposition, if i'm not there. show the jury the video. even cherry pick the good parts for the plaintiff. that is far preferable than me taking the stand in open court and letting a plaintiff's attorney take shots at me.

so if that means he loses the civil case, fine. he probably thinks he's losing a ballots, but in his mind winning a political war. >> willie, what he can't cherry pick, the "access hollywood" tape bake lip reveals what his attitude has long been towards women and, of course, one of the reasons he didn't want to be in there. he would have to confront his own words, his own actions. again, right now, think about it. we talked about all of these other cases that are going on right now. this may be a civil case, but this is a case involving donald trump raping somebody. raping somebody. we talk about porn stars. a case accused by e. jean carroll of rape. he's not even showing up. his lawyer screaming at the possible rape victim, and it's not going well. >> it's not going well, and that "access hollywood" tape, by the way, is admissible. can be used in the trial and

likely will be used in this trial by e. jean carroll's lawyers. yeah. the tone, danny, curious what you think how this settles out, ba you it is a civil case and the standard is different, the tone from joe tacopina yesterday was, why didn't you scream? if this was so bad, why didn't you scream out? she said i was terrified. i didn't know what to do. all the things that rape victims are often harassed about. we heard in that courtroom yesterday. but what is the bar here for a civil judgment, unlike the criminal trial? >> the preponderance of the evidence. probably the only burden of proof that can be expressed mathematically. beyond a reasonable doubt, highest standard, criminal standard. lawyers like me argue in closing. such a high standard. doesn't mean beyond all doubt but the way you hesitate. the way you look at possibly buying a couch or something like that. preponderance of the evidence could be basically 5151%.

more accurately 50.00001%. what tips the needle one way or the other. it's a much lesser burden. much easier to make out and why so many civil cases settle, because defendants know they're facing a very difficult burden and they'd rather manage that risk and end up paying money they know that they can quantify today rather than just some runaway jury's verdict later on in the future and then have to spend more money appealing it. so the burden here is much lighter. but, you know, i have to say the tone maybe could have been changed, but a defense attorney in a case like this, whether it's criminal or civil. this really mirrors a criminal case, he has to explore the credibility of the victim on cross-examination. he has to do it. now, the way you do it, you have to be nuanced. you have to be polite, respectful of the witness. that's the key. if you don't, the jury's going

to see that and they're got going to like it. it is a needle you have to thread. got to tell you, it is hard to thread that needle. done it myself. i don't know if i've done it successfully, but it is hard. >> and, rev, you know the attorney very well. he didn't thread any needle yesterday. he kind of kicked open the barn door and went in. >> i was surprised how aggressive he was, and as particularly given his client, who he knows has a tape on him saying, "you just grab em." and if you want to indict yourself just grab the tape. >> and he's laughing about that. he's admitting -- >> and instructing somebody how to do it. >> this is how you do it. >> this is not his best thing. >> no. joe tacopina, that is. mika, news of mike pence. he ended up testifying after all of the twists and the turns and the fading and protesting too much. he testified.

he always knew he was going to have to testify. >> exactly. it was before a federal grand jury. investigating the january 6th insurrection. this is according to a source familiar with the matter. this is the grand jury that was convened by special counsel jack smith investigating former president donald trump's efforts to overturn his 2020 election loss, and stay in power. two lack suvs enter the courthouse garage around 9:00 a.m. an entrance allowing witnesses to head up to the grand jury rooms without being seen by the public. the suvs left the courthouse about 4:30 p.m. nbc news has learned special counsel jack smith's team is particularly interested in trump's efforts to try to block the certification of the election, and, joe, i guess, you know, the naivete in my, why

something important? follow mike pence you might think, why did he search for trump for so long? what was his motivation. at the same time, his commitment to the country, isn't his commitment to the country also to testify about this? >> well, listen. he had to know, his lawyer hs to tell him from the very beginning because we could have told him from the very beginning you're going to have to testify. you look at every one of these issues. the supreme court 0, brushing aside assertions of privilege from the very beginning. they're not going to stand in the way of any investigation regarding january the 6th. again, 63, 64 times these federal judges, even federal judges appointed by the federalist society didn't buy into any of the lies regarding the widespread election fraud. they're just not playing. so pence knew this, but he could look like the witness for republican primary voters. it's what he did, but he knew he

was going to have to come in. so, david, you're the one with all the great doj sources. come on. spill it right here. what are they doing? where are they going? i know a lot of people are, like, claire mccaskill who says justice delayed is justice denied. i understand this january 6th case is the most complicated. doesn't it seem like that obstruction case? it's so complicated on the documents. talk about the doj's pacing of their investigations. >> i think it's picked up a lot under jack smith. the last, the most important january 6th witness in terms of, you know, trump's mind-set, is intent. it is mike pence. all of these investigations. did trump knowingly pressure him to overturn the results of the election? did he know or should he have known this was illegal? a big step forward. glad pence did it. deserves credit for what he did on january 6th. talk in, the obstruction case is a very clear case.

you could see jack smith, you know, doing something, a decision this summer, maybe. >> this summer? going to be a busy summer. >> it's going to be a very busy summer but he's been very aggressive on all of these fronts. both january 6th and the classified documents. >> danny, curious. your take on this and also all the cases. a boatload to pick from. what i've seen in polling, makes sense, actually, it's, we all get the obstruction. he did something that biden, pence didn't do. there's something about that georgia case that really rankles voters. you look at polls, and they go, yeah. we hear the phone call where he's talking to one of the supporters and saying, rig this election. just get me enough votes to overturn it. that's coming this summer. the documents case most likely coming this summer. i'm sure january 6th might be after all of that, because it's such a complex case, but how do

you see all of these things lining up -- understanding we're going to be in full election mode by -- late august, early september. >> we've entered the twilight zone, because we may be thinking about what courts will prioritize their criminal prosecution of a former president over the next year, and how will these courts decide whether or not to have trial before or after the election. i mean, it's really not always just up to the courts. courts will work with litigants. so the real question becomes, what do the litigants want? what does trump want? what does the government want if they indict him? going back to georgia, always that you see georgia presented a real threat because i never imagined new york county, the manhattan d.a. posed a threat. i didn't think, not a case high on my list of potential -- >> circle back to that. why did he bring that? like, if he -- if alvin bragg was going to bring that i expected more, because he said,

a year before. comes back late perp thinking, well -- 847 million counts of felonies. has to be something there. right? there was nothing. nothing that he didn't have a year before when he decided not to go forward. have you figured that out yet? >> all counts related to hush money payments, which i think are hugely problematic. because this was, i guess call it a task force of prillient people including mark pomprantz who wrote a tell-all book. a groundbreaking event. first time a defense attorney like me got a look at inner workings of a task force of really brilliant prosecutors. >> what did you find? >> what did i find? >> in reading it? >> i found that, according to mark pomerantz that he confirmed something i always thought was true. that prosecutors whether state or federal are subtly or psychologically reluctant to

indict a former president. >> makes a lot of sense. indict him a year later when you didn't have any evidence. >> that's the part we don't get, and i understand that prosecutors -- look, prosecutors are judged very much on their wins and losses. going after the most different defendant of all-time is a scary prospect. i don't blame him. bragg, according to prommer rantz was in the "no" camp. what brought him back to the "yes" camp? and if investigating other things like new york's equivalent of the ricco statute, tax violations. inflating loans and deflating when it came to paying taxes's why were none of those in there? why only dealing with hush money payments? if the answer is, as prosecutors we only like layups, things we can prove. no yo that's good enough answer for me. spend that much time investigating him and think he

did something wrong you should indict. the thesis of pomerantz' book. don't shy away from a difficult prosecution. instead you have multiple counts. to the very end, joe, i know there would be something in addition to the hush money payments, because i've always thought they were problematic as a prosecutor. >> willie, again, so many strong cases against donald trump. obstruction case, i'm sorry. easy to me to say from the cheat seats, looks like a slam dunk. the obstruction case looks like a slam dunk. georgia, man. the fact pattern, horrible for donald trump. absolutely horrible. they got tapes. it's not good. that's not going to end well. again, you kind of wonder why alvin bragg, if he didn't have anything else didn't just step back and let these strong cases move forward. >> think for a second as you are listening to this conversation, what we're talking about. a former president of the united states just in the first 20 minutes of the show listed four or five now with the civil rape

trial different caless this guy is in the middle of. >> right in the middle of, as he runs for president, joe. >> the rape trial that -- a civil rape trial. hush payments to porn stars. rigging an election in georgia that they got caught on tape, and lying to the doj? make america great again? i -- think -- not! >> or taking documents to your beach club in florida. we can add that to the list as well. so jonathan lemire, you wrote the book on this "the big lie" as we get back to mike pence's testimony to the grand jury yesterday. worth reminding everyone what he knows. what he might be able and willing to share with the grand jury in this case. he did as joe said offer that token pressure, refusing the subpoena. donald trump fought against the subpoena. the courts again and again said, no, you have to show up and mike pence knew that, but went through the paces to show at

least pushing back a little bit, i guess. what do you think he shared yesterday? what did he go through in those days around january 6th and leading up to january 20th? >> the rye analysis of the political calculation in 2023. pence trying to play it both ways. no one's quite sure what his lane is in the primary but needed to look fighting back against a biden justice department in an investigation against donald trump. inevitable we would get to this point and he would have to testify. mike pence was, of course, at the center of the scheme to overturn the election, and trump and his allies, it's worth reflecting back on this and i cover it extensively in my book. days amp the election, clear legal challenges weren't going anywhere. his team concocted scheme after scheme in terms how to overturn the election. a lot of them centered on, after a few weeks, fake electors, put other states before congress and, therefore, having those

thrown out, and have the house of representatives throw with mike pence helping throw the race to donald trump. mike pence was pressured. by trump, others in trump's orbit. we know that he, pence, qualitied former vice president dan quayle what to do. dan quayle remains an unlikely hero of the republic here and pence -- >> can you mark that down for a second. hold on. hold on! >> doesn't happen often. >> savior of the republic, dan quayle. put that in your book. i'm not being facetious here. so glad you said, david, that mike pence deserves -- >> credited for it. he stayed in the capitol, refused to leave. first saw the certification of the vote. >> winston churchill had one good year. he saved western civilization. mike pence had a good day. he helped save american

democracy. thanks, willie. thanks, willie. to dan quayle. a good golfer, too, i hear. >> ironically i was thinking about dan quayle during this conversation and had the exchange from bob woodward and bob costas both pulled up, jonathan lemire. i'lling brief. pence asked over and over nug i could do. quayle told him, mike, no flexibility on this. none, zero. forget it. put it away. he goes on to say that -- mike pence said, but, wait. you don't know the position i'm in. dan quayle said, i do know the position you're in. i also know what the law is. you listen to the parliamentarian. that's all you do. you have no power. end quote from dan quayle. >> wow! whew! >> that's great. that's incredible. >> encouraging, baby. >> thank you. >> and he was right, and what pence is, has and pence can offer, perhaps, to jack smith and his investigators. he was the only person in the room for those conversations's

particularly the last days. january 5th trump and pence had a one-on-one conversation and pence can testify as to what was said. what efforts donald trump on the eve of the insurrection, what he said to pence in that last-ditch effort. also know a call the next morning. that is why pence can detail everything that we sort of know already from other members of this play, other people in trump's orbit. pence and pence alone can speak to those conversations and trump's mind-set in just the hours before the insurrection. >> you know, rev, in scarborough country days bumper stickers we sold. it said, "my other car's an suv." double parked in scarborough country. here, "morning joe," we've got two bumper stickers for you. one, "dan quayle was right." i heard somebody say that. >> yes! >> and, two, joe scarborough is both stunningly superficial and miraculously mediocre. >> yes. >> that's a good one.

pit that one -- >> making a hoodie already, joe. >> a great hoodie. >> front and back. stunningly superficial on the back. miraculously mediocre on the front. works. >> and in front of 30 rock. bumper stickers. i think that what is critical about we just talked about is that the quayle conversation also meant that pence was put on notice, this is the law, and what trump was asking him to do is the to say, well, we were guessing, when he was told by a former vice president there's no guessing. no guessing. pence had to choose not only between trump and the law but himself, because you have a witness in dan quayle. i told him this was the law. >> that's right. >> crazy. >> that's right. mika, by the way, world tour's mediocrity. i may miss this. did you ever apologize for danny

for getting the rust thing right? ever apologize? >> let me get in position. ah! >> you rubbed him badly when you said these charges should never be brought. >> i did say that. yeah. i did say that, and, hi -- hi. >> look at him! >> can we do a split with them, quickly. >> oh, no, no, no. danny doesn't want that. >> we'd all like to -- anything to say to danny this morning? >> i'm sorry, danny. >> mika, i'm wrong almost all the time. this one i had said, broken clock analogy. >> in mika's defense, if alec baldwin and his wife had not opened their big mouths in the aftermath probably would have avoided -- >> i wondered about that. >> probably true. i can't tell you any -- any criminal attorney will tell you a client ruins their case opening their mouth either

before or after arrested. happened to me. happened to everybody. >> and danny -- >> by the way -- >> go ahead, joe. >> no. i was just going to say to elise, we should name him an honorary southerner. you heard that false mmodesty. what we do. i'm always right, what we do with the sound. false modesty. danny, honorary. >> bless danny's heart. >> yeah. >> thank you, mika. >> he was right, and -- i was stuck on the whole gun safety issue, because i had been taught all my life about gun handling. how you just never point the gun. so -- at someone -- but, yep. danny, you know the law. why we have you on. danny cevallos. thank you so much. >> thank you. thank you, mika. >> for being on this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," florida governor ron desantis brushes off a new lawsuit filed against him by disney, but some top republicans are voicing concern about the

ongoing fight. >> this is a terrible split for him. >> yeah. yeah! the mouse! plus -- used to be my nickname. 2024 gop candidate nikki haley saying a prediction about a potential second term for president biden. what she said and how the white house is hitting back. also ahead, russia launches a new wave of large-scale air strikes across ukraine. the very latest on the fighting there, and later this morning, joe's in new york, because he has an interview, which we will air live, with french president emmanuel macron as part of the global citizen now summit. we look forward to that in our fourth hour. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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joe." it's a friday. isn't it? my god. a beautiful look at the united states capitol, a place we called the people's house. that's been a -- it's so fascinating when i went to poland and we spoke with survivor of the holocaust. that's now, i know this is hard for some people on the trump right to imagine, that capitol now has been sort of recharged as the people's house. this -- the survivor of the holocaust, survivor of auschwitz saying when we look at the united states capitol on january 6th and we saw how you fought back not just that day but day

after day after day, he said i knew exactly what you americans were doing, and you weren't just fighting for yourself. you weren't just fighting for your freedom. you were fighting for all of our freedoms. and he looked at us and he said, and i know what i'm talking about. i know how tyrannies begin, and that's how tyrannies begin. hard to look at that capitol without thinking about not just the sacrifice of the people on that day, but the professionals who were actually forcing the rule of law day in and day out across america. who are lied about. who were abused. who -- who -- some -- the president, the former president of the united states tries to get their names out there. fbi agents names out there and people on other networks tried to get fbi agent's names out there to put their lives at risk

and their family's lives at risk. well, they're patriot work is getting noted for people in america and across the globe. speaking of loving freedom, fighting for western democracy, fighting for free elections and fighting for freedom of the press, because this is something also that was talked about when we were over in poland on the 80th anniversary of the warsaw ghetto uprising. talked about freedom of the press. talked about how critical a free press was. to pushing back against the constant lies, which brings us to evan gershkovich in jail on bogus charges by a regime that actually expects one day to be admitted back into the world community. what can you tell us? where is this right now? >> so, yesterday -- >> first of all, your background, obviously, you've been through --

>> myself taken by the taliban. evan gershkovich, wonderful brave reporter. u.s. put sanctions on fsb. russian intelligence agency, for holding evan, and paul whalen others held five years put sanctions on iran's intelligence agencies. three americans currently held in iran. my friend jason, another journalist. it is about silencing the press, it's about democracy, freedom of information. a struggle against -- >> talk about what evan be was doing. >> reporting. he was showing the impact of the sanctions on the russian economy. doing nothing wrong. i met countless friends of his there. he's an amazing guy. so proud how he stood in court there and looked so strong. great to see brittney griner playing basketball again. smiling yesterday, but also saying how she's thinking of him. so 53 americans held abroad right now. most of them by authoritarian regimes around the world. sanctions are a step to try to

deter this. this is going to be a long struggle but this is part of the fight for democracy. >> a fight for freedom, rev. a fight for the free press. a fight that too many people in this country don't appreciate. >> too many don't appreciate it, and i'm glad you mentioned brittney, because two weeks ago brittney griner came to a convention. first time really come out, and you cannot imagine the trauma and what evan must be going through, because you get a sense around brittney that she just doesn't even want to talk about what it is to be like, in a russian prison for doing nothing. she'll only feel our audience, because we have to keep fighting for those that are left in russia and as you mentioned evan. she says don't just fight for me because i'm black. fight for evan, and i could sense she knows what he's going through without saying it, and people need to really deal with

it, and journalists all over the world standing for that. >> fight for evan. >> and dozens of russian journalists held also. local journalists always around the world. who you really want. >> all right. so jonathan lemire, what's the white house's plan on evan? >> well, this is a weekend where they're going to shine a bright spotlight on it. it is the white house correspondents dinner. evan's parents will be there. the president in his speech tomorrow, numerous remarks off the top, as always. then he's going to make a very serious pitch about the importance of the freedom of the press, importance of the first amendment and a call for evan again to be sense home. there is hope here that there could be starts of talks down the road, but the russians brought up obstacle after obstacle. in fact, sergey lavrov throwing a fit about russians that didn't

get a vista to new york to cover his appearance at the united states and now barring a consulate in russia with the u.s. ambassador in. no signs of progress the would us will try to use this weekend to, again, shine a spotlight on how eng fortunate and unfair and illegal the situation is. >> all right. we're going to be following this story, and we're also following the battle for access to abortion. the nebraska legislature is unlikely to pass this six-week abortion ban. lawmakers fell just short of one vote needed to break a filibuster. so the bill probably won't move forward. this legislative session. the mesh worry have banned abortions once a heartbeat is detected. republican governor in favor of it and called yesterday's vote unacceptable. this is the second straight year nebraska lawmakers have failed to pass further abortion restrictions. the procedure as currently

alloweds, up to 20 weeks of pregnancy. meanwhile, south carolina's state senators again rejected a bill that would have banned nearly all abortions in the state. state republicans voted against the legislation yesterday that would have banned the procedure at conception with exceptions for rape or incest through the first trimester, fetal abnormalities in the fetus, or if a woman's life is in danger. republican female senators took the floor to voice opposition saying that while they are pro-life they feel this bill goes too far. >> some of the preaching has sounded, and i just have to point this out, some of it has sounded condescending, demeans, cold and judgmental. no matter the intent, there are

millions of women, millions of women in this state who feel like they've been personally undressed in this legislation. millions of women who feel not heard and that's why i'm standing up here this long. >> i don't want any woman to have abortions and have another senator sit there and tell me that i'm not pro-life because i don't say no woman can ever have an abortion? that is crazy. i don't want any women to have abortion, but most certainly they should be allowed to have some access to what the senator from anderson has already admitted is health care. >> it's about real people. with real lives. who face real challenges that require them to make real decisions. that are best for them and their families. reproductive rights are human

rights. >> abortion is currently legal in the state through 22 weeks of pregnancy. this is now the third time since the supreme court overturned roe v. wade a near total abortion ban has failed in the south carolina senate. they keep trying, but, joe, you know, republicans are missing their nose in fronts of their face, because these are realities that will come to a home or a family near them where a woman has a problem and cannot get the health care she needs. we just showed on our show yesterday a woman from texas who nearly died and she had to wait until a hospital board decided whether she was "sick enough" to get a termination. so she nearly died, and her life was on the line. the baby was not going to make it, and she's waiting and -- she's septic, and she's waiting for a hospital board to decide whether or not she could receive

health care! >> it's -- it's shocking. astounding. it's one of the republican legislators said, women said, in south carolina, it's out of the -- men telling women what they can and can't do with their bodies even when they are close to dieing. this is -- and -- and i will say aside from all of these personal tragedies, and -- and these old men telling young women what they can do with their bodies? as i said this past week. a 67-year-old bachelor with no children from south carolina screaming about abortion and -- and banning abortion? this is surreal. and it -- and it turns a political truth on its head. tip o'neill famous saying all

politics in local. i get that as a politician. i get that. but this is a case where all politics is national. you have an extreme ban passed in nebraska. it wasn't. but if an extreme ban is passed, then that congressional district in omaha that gives up one electoral vote every year, every four years either to a republican or a democrat. you watch. that's going bright blue. women in texas, people in texas, they go, we can do whatever the hell we want to do here on abortion. we can make women second, third, fourth-class citizens. even when women who are pro-life are saying this makes no sense. these extremes. a woman who almost dies in texas. that's a story that's read by women and men who give a damn in the philly suburbs. and the atlanta suburbs.

and wisconsin, in michigan, in pennsylvania. >> florida. >> in -- and these horrible stories in florida. by the way, anybody who thinks florida's gone forever. take a deep breath. keep getting more extreme, republicans, on guns. keep getting more extreme on abortion. i got news for ya. people from the northeast and the midwest, they ain't coming to florida for total abortion bans and for watching women die in bathrooms, because a board hasn't decided whether they can operate on a woman and save her life. tell me, elyse, these -- these state legislators are looking at their small districts and what they don't understand is they are creating horror stories that are being read across the nation. i said this after, after easter.

i don't want to know what percentage of them voted for trump in my own family. >> they weren't able to have the health care. >> right. >> enabling them to save their lives. it's absurd. >> they all had those stories and all say, this is madness. we're pro-life, but you can't do this to women. >> that's why -- if you want to keep women's health free in this country, it has to be referred to as "women's health." this is about access to health care. it is about keeping the government out of health care. when you have to convene a board to decide on a medical procedure that's life-saving, that is exactly the opposite of what the founders would have wanted. it's exactly the opposite of what conservatives should want, if they don't want the government involved in every facet of their lives. >> elise, i've told people this since i saw your focus group. you had the trump people in

georgia. you had that one guy. that wasn't a conspiracy theory that guy wasn't all-in for. one after another after another. then you asked him about abortion. are you pro-life, and he said -- and it was just one of those moments. i remember halperin and heilemann had a focus group in 2016. they asked a woman who was blue collar, tattoos. looked like, just looked like she was the opposite, it was new hampshire. the opposite of what a trump voter would be. what we thought a frump voter would look like and she said, he's one of us. and at that moment we all looked at each other and said, okay. this guy has got something. this guy's got something going. when i saw your focus group and this trump guy in on all the conspiracies. you asked him about abortion. he goes, why should have i an opinion on abortion. it's not for me. i'm a man. i have no say in that. just, it's kind of like, the

curtain tore in half and you could actually see into the mind of the american voter, and that's what we've seen in kentucky since. what we've seen in kansas. it's in wisconsin. what we're going to see across america. >> that's where most republican voters are. they are not extreme on this issue the way that extremists have hijacked the party justified says they have gun rights, too. republicans want to have a strong second amendment. they don't necessarily support high-volume magazines. if you look at polling. if you talk to republican voters about what measures they actually support, there's plenty about the gun laws right now that they think, yeah. we could have better background checks, but you look how it's been hijacked, extremism with gun on the right in particular and with abortion you see how what's happening on the left. it would be like if medicare for all and if, ban the police. stop, you know, defund the police. if that actually has some

success, it's just these polls have completely taken over the conversation, and are dominating in a way that is not reflective of where american voters are. >> yeah. and joe, as you know, there are many, many republicans who understand this. they understand these laws are bad for women. number one. number two, bad politically. one of the women a republican state senator we just heard from there turned to the senate majority leader in south carolina. a man pushing this ban and said, you are taking us off a cliff on the issue of abortion. she addressed the women's issue side of it. the medical side of it. then started talking about the politics. you are driving us off a cliff. you know who agrees with her? donald trump. remember after the midterm elections what he posted and said we lost. a lot of this him taking heat off himself, but he did say, we lost because of the abortion issue. he understands that. criticized ron desantis for signing that six-week abortion ban. there are people who get this. the question is, will they stand up and push back on this?

at least in nebraska yesterday they did. republicans did. >> after roe was overturned donald trump was freaking out saying this is going to be a nightmare in the suburbs. a nightmare among more educated voters, and i mean he was absolutely right. >> meanwhile, he did appoint the three justices, joe, that overturned roe v. wade. he's having it both ways there, but, yes. >> nobody ever suggested donald trump was consistent on anything. but you look. david, you think about this. and just to show how much republicans are out of step. especially these extreme republicans. these maga republicans, as joe biden would say. if we had, and bill clinton referenced this when i was talking to him in belfast last week. if every state had a referendum on abortion, if every state had a referendum on universal

background checks, if every state had a referendum on red flag laws. if every state had a referendum on restricting -- not banning but restricting -- the sale of military-style weapons, 45, i'm serious, 46, 47 of those 50 states would pass a majority of those referendums requiring universal background checks, requiring -- requiring red flag laws. requiring restrictions on military-style weapons. making sure that women have access to health care. it wouldn't be close. and this is the republican party, they they've got these state legislators and governors going to the extreme, extreme, extreme right. and they're going to end up continuing to destroy the national party. >> i have two daughters, the

classic dad thing. i have a 13-year-old and an 8-year-old. they are doing active shooter drills in their school. this is how they've grown up. will they have the right to choose? and again, this is south carolina and nebraska that you had two republican women standing up in the state senate as republicans and fighting back. it is all politics is local. they're worried about, you know, losing their local election, because that's how extreme this has become. and it's just dangerous for the whole country, when you have the extremes driving the agenda this way. i agree with you, guns, you know, women's health care, they're way out over their skis. it's going to hurt them. >> rev? >> no doubt about it. and i think even in the faith community, and i'm talking to people that are certainly pro-life when it comes to their choices, they're saying, this is going too far. and we can't get up in like this, where we legislate our

religious beliefs. and i think the far right are really missing where the tone of the public is. >> we talked about it yesterday, rev. we are living in jerry falwell's america right now in the church, in the evangelical church. nobody wants to hear this. everybody freaks out that i grew up when i remind them of this, the southern baptist church was pro-choice until jerry falwell, until richard viguerie, until they decided, as old john would say, don't shoot me, i'm only the piano player. until they decided, how do we run against a southern baptist who's running for re-election, how do we get evangelicals not to vote for jimmy carter in 1980? what do we do? jerry falwell, richard viguerie, paul wireick said, we will make abortion a religious issue. and you can even -- look at what

richard land said. he said, until 1979 or 1980, southern baptists focused on humans that were breathing. >> that's right. >> focused on humans that were breathing. but then, jerry falwell and these two direct mail guys that wanted to elect ronald reagan said, wait a second, abortion is now an issue for conservatives, for republicans, for evangelicals. don't vote for jimmy carter, vote for ronald ray indiana. >> that's exactly what -- had nothing to do with the issue, it was about politics and how to beat jimmy carter. >> and these people that will go, well, elise, you and i hear it, well, you're not right on abortion, so you're not a christian. oh, so you're saying that my grandmom, who raised her kids in the great depression and who lived for jesus 24/7 wasn't a christian? like, i'm just curious how we

went from the birth of jesus to the year the eagles broke up and abortion wasn't the preeminent issue. think about this. think about this! evangelicals were pro-choice when the beatles broke up. evangelicals were pro-choice when the eagles broke up! and now suddenly, you talk to people, and they tell you, this is how you define whether you're a christian or not. who decided that? oh, i actually know who decided that. jerry falwell and direct mail people who wanted to beat a southern baptist democrat. >> and not everyone really went along with it, though, deep at the core. i was in the southern baptist church in the era where it was all pro-life, and it became a single issue voter. they were successful in -- >> single issue voter. >> same here! that's the church. >> but i will never forget being

in church one sunday, and i was a kid, this was in the '80s. and they put up on the screen at the end some pictures of partial birth abortion. my dad took my hand, got me out. >> it was -- >> too extreme. too extreme. >> the thing is, the thing is, again, i've said this time and again, mika, if you are pro-life, i certainly understand why. i've got so many friends who are pro-life. i also have friends who are pro-life, who also believe women should make their choices on their health care. so, you know, i'm not going after people who say, well, i'm a christian, and because i'm a christian -- i'm just saying, somehow, with christian nationalism, abortion has become the central tenant, the central tenant of evangelical -- the

evangelical faith, and that didn't happen until 1980. and when i bring this up before, people go, oh, well, wait, the catholic church in the second century. but i keep saying, jesus didn't talk about it in the gospel. well, if you look, engineer jer said, before you were even born -- jesus didn't talk about it in the gospel. well, the catholic church said -- jesus didn't talk about it in the gospel. so, again, you can read the gospels and say, well, i draw from this, this, that, and the other. but it's kind of hard when you're for absolutely every war, when you want absolutely everybody to be executed, when you don't want to provide any support to babies once they're born, you're pro-life from conception to the moment of birth. i don't think that's what jesus meant when he said, let the little children come. >> but i also think that we need

to stress that most americans aren't for abortion up until the time of conception. so i think you're absolutely right in what you're saying, but i think that when so many pro-choice activists, and they're well intentioned. but when they're saying, abortion safe, legal, until -- every phase of pregnancy, most americans don't agree with that either. that's too extreme for most americans. >> they are not there. if you look at the polls, and nobody will like this, if you look at where the consensus is, it's about 15, 16, 17 weeks. it just is. again, that's just the reality. people, pro-choice people who, you know, whatever, but most americans say, 15, 16, 17 weeks with exceptions. >> and if you are looking at the evangelical faith or the catholic faith, you know, central tenants are forgiveness and kindness and love and these positions are brutal. they're brutal and cruel.

they have women dying on hospital beds because they can't get the health care they need. so it just -- it's mind blowing that they can hold on to this so tightly, as they lose their voters. david rohde, thank you so much. david will be joining the nbc news family next week, as senior executive editor covering national security. so we congratulate you and we welcome you. thank you very much. and coming up, how governor ron desantis is gearing up for a probable presidential campaign. "the guardian's" hugo lowell has new reporting on that and he joins us just ahead on "rnmoin

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the white house today and everywhere, i guess, it was take your kid to work day. the president was on hand for a celebration, escorted by alical.

so we got that out of the way. i want to get something else out of the way. it's like people, like trumpers, they are obsessed with hunter biden. i want to say for the 50th time, if hunter biden did something wrong, he should go to jail. just like we say about donald trump. and if he does go to jail, guess what, trumpers? we're not going to try to burn down the capitol. we're not going to try to undermine the rule of law. we're not going to say america

sucks, like you say america sucks if somebo and the bush ki

obama kids and there's an obsession with that. i know donald. if they broke the law, they should go to jail, like everybody else else. but there's a constant freakout and meltdown over it. >> yeah, it is. it's become an obsession, but in those bubbles, in those media corridors, it is a salient story. and it echos and it echos. you can open the "new york post" you have in front of you, and i bet you there's a story about hunter biden in there. we've covered it on the show. we've talked about it, we've done long segments about it so people can understand what's at issue, and there are some questions for hunter biden, but the idea that joe biden is

there. it's a bit of a leap. i'm just upset about the breakup of the beatles and eagles and i would add guns n' roses in '93, joe. >> by the -- the guns n' roses era, the evangelical church, firmly pro-life. >> exactly. what about everly brothers. that was like mid-70s when they really went at it. >> the everly brothers. dude, they're from the '50s. i think they broke up in the '70s. one of them hit the other one over the head with a guitar on a stage in hollywood. >> oh, yeah. >> guys, everyone's tired. it's friday. >> yeah, they were -- >> when the everly brothers mishmash went, i don't know if it was don or phil that got the guitar to the side of the head. but the evangelical church was still pro-choice at that point, as well. also, during the pet rock era, also. the mood ring era.

the -- >> the chia pet. >> the chia pet era, also pro-choice. but this came straight from jesus, right? wrong! jonathan lemire, reverend al sharpton, annalise jordan are still with us. let's bring in right now, "new york times" opinion columnist, david franch. he'll have something to say about the everly brothers. pulitzer prize columnist, eugene robinson, and the cofounder of axios, mike allen who has the words for the day. mike? >> happy white house correspondents friday. >> okay! very good. nice. >> look at this. >> i feel like we need to bring you in since we've been talking about evangelicals. but first, i know the alabama quarterback, the great bryce young went number one last night. what did kentucky's quarterback do? >> kentucky's quarterback slid a slid a little bit in the draft there, joe.

so not surprising, but disappointing for kentucky fans. but that kind of sums up kentucky football, maybe not most recently, but for decades. not surprising and still disappointing to see things not go the way we want it to go. >> my dad and mom obviously both graduated from kentucky, so i've always been following the kentucky football in the corner of my eye there. listen, i don't know if you've heard any of our evangelical talk about pro-life. not saying that great evangelicals shouldn't be pro-life. just saying that for people that say that this is the center point of the faith, they're missing the point that actually the southern baptist church was pro-choice, until the eagles broke up. so i'm having a hard time having jesus looking at the river jordan and making a proclamation about abortion. >> well, joe, i do -- i'm a pro-life evangelical, and i know

the history. i know the history. but as a pro-life evangelical, i've got to say that catholics were right, historically, and the evangelical church was wrong, historically. the catholic church, for a long time, the pro-life issue was seen as a catholic issue, not as an evangelical issue. and quite frankly, speaking from my own religious tradition, i think the catholics were right on that, and evangelicals were wrong and it was good that evangelicals changed their position on life. >> and again, that's certainly your opinion. and you're entitled to that opinion. my personal feeling is, though, and i think the -- and you're right, the catholics were strong on this, but even they debated it through the century. but i think in the 1930s, they became more harder on the issue. but again. the fact that this one issue has come to define christian nationalism, has come to define what it means to be a christian,

just twists and distorts, in my opinion, at least, the gospels. >> well, look, i think it's an important issue, show. but here's the thing. i know i'm in the political minority on this. you know, i'm in favor of sweeping abortion restrictions, because i believe that the life in the mother's womb is an independent, separate human life that is dependent, of course, on the mother for life, but it's still a life. and so it's entitled to protection. and one of the grievous wrongs of roe v. wade is that it stripped away from the states the ability to even protect that life at all. now, i know that i'm in the minority on this and i know that the pro-life movement has a lot of work to do to persuade americans of this position. this is a hard position to persuade a majority of americans to take. and so i do think that the pro-life movement has a

tremendous amount of work to do. and in many ways has made a mistake by focusing more on punitive legislation in a way that's alienated an awful lot of people as opposed to putting forth proposals that have a holistic approach to the issue of life. i'm very much in favor, for example, as elizabeth brunig wrote that birth should be free in the united states. there are other ways to support moms and kids. but i understand, joe, that my position is a minority in america. >> and you know, gene robinson, one thing that david has written, and i think it's a brilliant insight, pro-lifers got a ban or got roe v. wade overturned and we've now moved into this new era by judicial fiat. and they now need to go out and try to do what david is trying to do here, even though many people watching will disagree, go out and win the hearts and the minds.

actually debate this issue and win on the hearts and minds. and say, okay, maybe -- and these extreme punitive positions, they're not going to ever win there. but maybe they win at 15 weeks, 16 weeks, 18 weeks where a lot of americans are. >> right. but they don't seem to be willing or ready to actually have a debate. i disagree with david's position and i think we all now recognize that roe v. wade was basically where the country was, a constitutional right, a privacy right to abortion with the subsequent decisions made clear, with state able to impose reasonable restrictions. and that varied from state to state. that's kind of where the country was. now that that rug has been pulled out from under the

country. it's -- the pro-life side does not seem to be willing to have the sort of debate that david is talking about. it's just more and more restrictions. six-week ban, you know, absolutely my way or no way. and that is alienates so many voters. it's alienating, of course not just democrats but independents, suburban republicans, it's a losing political issue. and i think it's a losing, just position in terms of where the nation is and should be. >> you know, what's so interesting is, you actually have now prosecond amendment people, supporters of the second amendment, that are talking about the need for universal background checks, talking about the need for red flag laws. talking about reasonable gun safety legislation. so much so that the nra's

position on this and a lot of state legislature's position on this, far too extreme for even gun owners. you look at poll after poll after poll. and most gun owners are responsible. they want responsible gun safety laws. we now have the same thing with abortion and we're seeing it more and more. people have identified as pro-life throughout their life are now looking at the horrific consequences of the protections of roe no longer being there and saying, like the man in atlanta said, not my decision. and these women dying in closets in hospitals, these women dying because of these heinous laws, i'm sorry, it's -- at the end of the day, it's a woman's right. it's going to have a big bank account in 2024. and you look at somebody like ron desantis who is supposed to be the great white hope, as

mohammad ali would say, turned into the great white dope on this six-week ban. six-week ban. he's got a lot of problems. and it's not just abortion, it's mickey mouse. he's got a mouse with brass knuckles by the name bob iger coming after him. >> yep! >> and that's not good news for ron desantis. >> i think this might have been a mistake. during a news conference in jerusalem yesterday -- >> wait a second, wait a second, wait, wait. they're still in session. he said he couldn't run because he had to stay in tallahassee. >> he's in jerusalem. >> jerusalem, florida, i've never heard of jerusalem, florida? where is jerusalem, florida? >> not jerusalem, florida? >> not jerusalem, florida. >> okay. >> he's out of the country. florida governor ron desantis appeared to brush off a new lawsuit filed against him -- >> wasn't he just in tokyo? >> yeah. >> wasn't he just in tokyo? what's he doing? is it safe to ask, what's this guy doing?

>> he's burnishing his credentials, because he has no foreign policy experience and needs to do the obligatory tour, joe. >> a little late for that. >> right. but there's this lawsuit filed against him by walt disney. take a look. the company. >> they're upset because they're actually having to live by the same rules as everybody else. they don't want to have the pay the same taxes as everybody else. and they want to be able to control things without proper oversight, where every other floridian has to have this type of oversight. i don't think the suit has merit. i think it's political. i think they filed, you know, in tallahassee, for a reason, because they're trying to generate, you know, some district court decision, but we're very confident on the law. >> governor desantis commenting on the lawsuit from jerusalem yesterday. meanwhile, some republicans are voicing concern over desantis' ongoing fight with disney. here is florida senator marco rubio and house speaker kevin

mccarthy said yesterday. >> i think where it gets problematic in the eyes of some people is when you start creating the idea, and i'm not saying that we're there yet as a state, but the idea that somehow if you run cross waves with us politically, whoever's in charge, you may wind up in the crosshairs of the political purposes to make a statement at you. i don't think disney is going to go anywhere. they've invested a lot of money and time and that's going to find itself out. i do worry if this happens too many times, businesses that are thinking about coming to florida, may not want to go there, because they're thinking, if we get into a firestorm with them personally, they're going to come after our business. >> this is a big employer inside florida. i think the governor should sit down with them. i don't think the idea of building a prison next to the place where you bring your family is the best idea. i think it would be much better if you sit down and solve the problem. >> speaker mccarthy pointing to the fact that desantis floated the idea of putting a prison next to disney world to punish

them. this was last year, the previous ceo of disney, who's not there anywhere, came out and criticized on behalf of the company this legislation, this law about sexuality and talking about gender and sexual orientation in schools in florida. hurt ron desantis' feelings. now he's going to the matt over this. but he's dealing with a different ceo now in bob iger. and i would just add one thing that steve rattner pointed out to us, this idea of a special district in florida is not unique to disney. the villages, this sprawling retirement community has one as speedway, so should those two placs also have their status removed. >> he's going straight after disney for the political reasons. and the fact that they have the same set-up obviously shows this is a political retribution. it will be interesting to see what the federal court does.

again, desantis should sue for peace. i don't keep saying this every day for my health. you're not going to beat bob iger. you're just not, ronnie. time to move on. pick on somebody else. because this doesn't end well. i love these split screens, too. how would you like to be, like a politician in the state of florida and it's a split screen, you versus mickey mouse, you versus walt disney. you versus the most beloved institution in the state of florida that created modern florida. it's just not a good look. and speaking of not a good look, he's got this world tour going on, mike allen. and he's in jerusalem. why is he this jerusalem right now when they're still in session? >> this is a trade mission, joe. you should recognize that when you see it. so you're right, as part of this four-country swing the governor

started in japan, north korea, israel, and now he's headed to the uk. and the split screen i was thinking about is when you are either trying to drum up business for the state and state business officials traveled with the governor, or if you're trying to show that you have a grasp on foreign policy, being asked about this suit, which is splitting your party back home definitely isn't what you want. so between the lines, joe, of those clips that we just saw, especially of senator marco rubio is that disney is a massive political and economic force in the state. the lawyers in the party think that this is not going to end well. chris christie, the former new jersey governor, one of those people you were referring to, who says cut your losses, move on. and a distraction from anything that governor desantis wants to be talking about. he has his legislature in session. he has a super majority.

he can get anything he wants. and this is what he's asked about. >> but he's also dining with massive republican donors, who just coincidentally happen to be in jerusalem at the same time. >> axios has new reporting about governor desantis dining with miriam adelson, who is, of course, was the wife of sheldon adelson, between them two of the biggest gop donors in the history of donations. and so, this appearance was a good story, a good political story for the governor. someone that everyone is courting. and showing that she's not automatically going to be with donald trump, as she has been in the past. by the way, ps, donald trump, one of the people who's taking governor desantis to task on this, when donald trump, talking about the disney engagement pb when donald trump is saying that

you're guilty of a stunt, that's another thing the governor is being asked. >> that's bad. >> so to another candidate. 2024 presidential candidate nikki haley implied this week that president biden may not make it through a full second term if re-elected. >> wow. >> take a listen. >> he's announced his, you know, that he's running again in 2024. and i think we can all be very clear and say with a matter of fact that if you vote for joe biden, you really are counting on a president harris, because the idea that he would make it until 86 years old is not, um, is not something that i think is likely. >> what?! wait, what? what? she's predicting he's going to die? i think his mom lived to be -- how old did his mom live to be? a lot older than 86. >> in response to hailey's comments, white house deputy press secretary said, quote, as

you know, we don't directly respond to campaigns from here, but honestly, i forgot she was running." ouch! okay. i just, first of all, i want to say, it appears everybody on both sides who has any concerns about joe biden running again, it's all about his age. you've got nothing else. it's all about his age. if that's your issue, he's doing pretty well. and he said himself, judge me for my performance. and we could talk about his performance as president, as historical in terms of accomplishments. >> we really could. you could look at what he's done legislatively. he's done a fantastic job! legislatively, compare him to the last three, four comparison presidents, there's no comparison. you look at the coalition he's built to push back on russian

aggression. it's historic. he's revived nato. there's a thousand things he's done. of course, you've got other channels, talking about hunter biden's laptop, and the fact that he fell off a bike -- >> an entire segment -- an entire segment -- >> half an hour! >> on joe biden eating an ice cream cone. this takes us back to barack obama wearing a tan suit in the white house. this is all they have. it's good news for joe biden. >> well, they have nothing, but the statement by hailey i think is something we have been gun hearing in the civil rights community a few weeks ago. there's going to be an attempt to go into certain segments of the country and say a vote for biden is a vote for harris, with all of the racial and misogynist implications that is. because they're really saying is, you're going end to up with a black woman as president. and i think that we need to deal

with that head-on, because first of all, it is absolutely outrageous to predict the death of anybody, which is what she did. we're talking about this woman running for president of the united states, who is in effect, killing off the present president or giving a length of time. wasn't it their commentator that got in trouble about saying, when women are at their peak, so now she's going to decide how long joe biden is going to live? the underlying thing, though, is, you're really voting for harris in certain segments of this country, you're really putting a black woman in the white house. and i think that people need to confront that. and that will energize a lot of voters, because we're not that stupid. >> yep. yep, yep, yep. >> gene, your latest piece for "the washington post" is entitled, kamala harris must keep walking a tightrope for biden's re-election bid. talk about your piece, and also what rev just said.

>> talking about kamala harris. she appeared more than a dozen times in president biden's announcement video and that was not by accident. there's a real emphasis on this as the biden/harris team. and i think that's in part an acknowledgement that, yes, the president is older, but, yes, he has a very able vice president with him. not necessarily just to take over if he dies, as nikki haley came out and said, but to be a partner in the next biden/harris administration. so i just sort of looked at her time in office so far. she has been a good vice president. she has done what vice presidents are supposed to do, which is, not upstage the president, not get out in front of the president, as various

vice presidents, including joe biden did at various times, and to be a good soldier and to advise the president, as she does, just about every day. and she gets a lot of flack for that. i think she has been covered and treated unfairly, with more of a focus than i think, frankly, yes, it does have to do with racism and misogyny. but, that kind of -- you know, she knew the job was dangerous when she took it. she knew this was coming and she was more than able to withstand it. she's had a real education in foreign policy, and i think people aren't quite aware of -- look at her schedule every day, and so many foreign leaders have come through washington make a stop at the vice president's residence. she's come to know foreign

leaders, really understand the issues. she's the last high-level official of our government to talk to volodymyr zelenskyy, president zelenskyy right before the russian invasion. so she's ready. and she's a real partner in this administration. >> this is the headline in the axios newsletter that we all read at 6:00 every morning about biden's age and how the white house is grappling with this, and how they will continue to deal with it looking ahead into this campaign. we do point out, as we pointed out on this show, the likely opponent here is not exalt 43-year-old jfk in 1960. donald trump is going to be 77 here coming up in june. so how is the white house talking about, and behind the scenes, dealing with the question of age. >> willie, we have some great new reporting on this from alex thompson, who's crushing it in week one as an axios national political reporter. and behind the scenes, the white

house says the president's mentally sharp, look at his agility. but then they so often add the words, "for his age." that's why this will keep being such a big question. willie, you saw the word cloud on "meet the press" from the nbc poll last weekend saying when the democrats have doubts about the president, this is at the top. and aides concede that it does make a difference in his schedule. you very rarely see the president doing events in the early morning, late at night on weekends, and of course, president trump was very much the same, when he was in the oval office. you remember executive time that kept him in the residence for most of the morning. you'll see continued scrutiny about it. voters wonder about it, the white house hates the topic, brush it away, but behind the scenes, they know it's going to be something that they're going to have to guard against every day. in fact, some of the aides talking to alex thompson even

compare the president to an aging king who has people around him to protect, protect. so you'll see that in the weeks and months ahead during the rigors of this campaign. >> i mean, again, the contrast. a 77-year-old guy, sometimes you would look at him at those covid press conferences and go, what in the world is this guy talking about? the he still all there? and executive time? all he did was executive time, which meant he would watch cable news and scream at the tv set. so not a great contrast for the trump team. and by the way, joe biden's beloved mother lived to the age of 92. joe biden's not going anywhere anytime soon. david french, what long week this has been. tucker carlson, it seems, that news dropped in 1943. it's friday now and we've had a

couple of days. it's so interesting. you say something here brilliant and insightful. you say, tucker carlson was both more and less important than you think. and somebody brings up the fact that tucker had 3.3 million people looking at him. we're a country of 333 million people. 150, 160 million people voted. that's a small fraction of it, yet he seemed to have such a disproportionate impact on one of the two major parties that he could literally, you talk to his producers, he literally could threaten a representative to do something and if they didn't do it, he would say, i'll destroy you tonight, according to her testimony. >> yeah, what tucker carlson did, and his role was to take trumpism, his notion of not just the man donald trump, what the movement would be, and really

made sure that trumpism really reflected who donald trump was. and carlson was, he was the one who radiated the same cruelty that donald trump did. he had the same very loose relationship with the truth that donald trump did. he had the same punitive personality that -- of course, tucker's unique twist on it, but in many ways, he was just as punitive skpernl as donald trump was. and he beamed that into millions of american hoempls night, night after night, during the weekdays. and it had an effect on the republican party and the public. and he was really important. the problem is, he was on smns's platform. he was on fox news's platform. and that's what gave him access to so many millions of eyeballs. now that he's gone from fox, and he'll do something else, we

don't know what that is. but there's a very high probability that he's going to be considerably diminished going forward. that's the part where he's less important. but there is absolutely no question that he used that platform that fox news gave him to dramatically influence not just the republican party that began to imitate that same dishonesty, that same cruelty, that same way of engaging in misleading argumentation, that almost always ended in direct personal attacks. i saw the cultural effect of tucker carlson in my own community. so he was important. it remains to be seen how important he'll be going forward. >> you know, i feel like we also need to do a public service announcement to young conservatives, because when i was younger, we would try to emulate ronald reagan, and i

still think america's greatest days lie ahead. i still think that we can find a middle ground. we don't have to be hateful. that shaped, at least me and a lot of other people growing up to believe that you can disagree with everything that tip o'neill believes yet at the end of the day, you can talk and have a rule that at 6:00 at night, which they did, politics was put to the side and they became friends. it never became personal. and think about what they were able to accomplish. we, unfortunately, conservatives have been growing up over the past five, six, seven, eight years to think the way to win is to be hateful. the way to win is to lie. the way to win, i hate to use this word, but with tucker carlson, it fits better than any -- gaslighting. the very things that are a lie, you call it the truth and say,

they want -- they don't want you -- they're lying to you when they tell you this about january 6th. or they're lying to you, and we're the only ones telling you the truth. and people watching for the most part, they dig below it. they know he's lying! of but they think, he's getting away with it, i can get away with it. i feel like we need to just stop at this point and as i've been saying for the last year, the laws of gravity are returning. if you lie about parents whose 5-year-old children were slaughtered, you will go bankrupt. if you try to beat the hell out of cops who were trying to stop a riot to overthrow the federal government, you will be thrown in jail.

and i could go on and on and on, there are consequences, even for tucker carlson, the most powerful person at fox, there are consequences to all of these actions. nobody's perfect, but the air gans that we've seen time and time again feudal by trumplism is getting called out time and time again. by the way, by liberal judges, by moderate judges, and by conservative federalist society judges. >> that's exactly right, joe. where public morality has failed, in many way, the law has prevailed. and that's what you're talking about with the prosecution of the january 6th defendants, where you're talking about the giant settlement that fox has paid to dominion. probably more checks to come in the future.

and even in the tucker carlson situation, there's reporting that the abby grossberg lawsuit that was exposing sexism and bigotry in the workplace was a factor in tucker carlson's firing. all of these things are where the guardrails have come away and blew away the republican party. we now have a generation of young conservatives and in college who all they have known in these formative years is this trumpist form of discourse that's extraordinarily cruel and extraordinarily dishonest. and we wonder why gen "z" is rejecting that. we don't want to set up a world where to be conservative means to be personally cruel. but that's what trumplism and is it rightfully alienates people. >> david french, can't agree

with you more. thank you. eugene robinson, thank you as well. we'll be reading your latest column in "the washington post." it's good to have you both. still ahead on "morning joe,"io will sit down for a live interview with french president emmanuel macron, as part of the global citizen now summit. also ahead, three-time academy award-winning director oliver stone will join the table with a look at his new documentary. plus. >> with the first pick in the 2023 nfl draft, the carolina panthers select bryce young, cornerback, alabama. >> we're going to go to the site of the 2023 draft, where we have our nfl correspondents standing by. yes, jen palmieri joins us live from kansas city. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back!

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including handguns, rifles, an, a k-style high-capacity weapon and a gas mask. he's accused of leaking information about china, the war in ukraine, as well as documents about how u.s. is gathering intelligence on its allies. the u.s. is under pressure to determine why an airman in tech support had access to some of the nation's top secrets. >> the sad reality is that it seems like our department of defense has less of a rigorous insider threat and vetting process program in place than even corporate america does. >> teixeira has not yet entered a plea. his lawyer calling him a 21-year-old kid who lives in his

hometown and would stay with his father if released. >> peter alexander reporting there. let's bring in democratic congressman jim himes of connecticut. he's the ranking member of the house intelligence committee. thanks for being with us. what more have relearned in the last week or so about this story broke about this guardsman, this air guardsman from massachusetts. the working theory a while lack was he was a guy who had access to documents, who was basically showing off online for his gaming buddies. but appears there may be more here. do we know anything else about his motive at this point? >> we don't know more. he obviously didn't speak in that court proceeding you were just talking about, and investigators are investigating, and as investigators don't do, they aren't sharing it with us. but i'll tell you a conversation that's happening in this building, that is -- that points to what your story was just saying, which is, this is not the first time that we've had a leak by someone who as i said, when i looked at edward snowden's background, would not

have gotten hired in my office as an intern. yet here's a guy, this airman, who has social media, much of it public, raising all kinds of concerning things. and as it turns out, very rarely in a security clearance process is the dod or other elements looking at that social media. and it's just got people around here scratching their heads. now, mind you, you know, expressing a strong political opinion constitutionally protected. but doing things saying like, i want to "kill a lot of people ", you might have thought in a clearance process, that might have led to a follow-on conversation and it didn't. >> yeah. >> so congressman, what can be done? i think it's -- i think most americans look at this guy and say, it's outrageous that he had clearance. you talk about edward snowden, we look -- we talk about chelsea manning, we can do down the list. why is it so easy for these people to have access to some of the most secretive documents? >> it's easy because the technology is bad. apparently, this airman could

not only get access to information to top-secret information, he could print it out! there is no planet in which that makes any sense. you've got a culture problem. this is literally a bottom-to-top problem, right? we had this happen with the president at mar-a-lago and two former vice presidents and then you've got this 21-year-old. this is a bottom-to-top problem. i would observe that a lot of these problems are happening more on the military side of something. and that's not meant as a criticism. the military, these people are war fighters. but they're happening less inside places like cia, where a core competency is protecting secrets. i think we have both a technological revamp of access to this information, as well as an -- and let me tell you a quick story. i have a friend who's looking for a security clearance right now. i got a phone call who some guy who said, is he a good guy? in a world where your entire life including in places where you don't have an expectation of privacy like facebook and twitter, we need to be doing a lot better about coming to know

the people we are trusting with our secrets. >> congressman, there have been many news reports saying that we aren't even sure of the extent of the leaks yet, of how much information was put out there by the leaker. do you have any sense in your capacity on the intelligence committee of how much damage was done? >> well, yeah, it's always hard to know what you don't know, right? and, you know, this kid, for longer than we thought, was actually taking this stuff out of the 109th air wing in cape cod, massachusetts. until he cooperates fully, you just don't know what you don't know. we don't know if there's a box somewhere, which, by the way, which is why the prosecutors are trying to keep him in jail so more damage can't be done. the pentagon is doing a damage assessment, just like they're doing with the documents at mar-a-lago and the ones we were talking about months ago. it takes a little bit of time. it takes a long time to figure out what sources and methods might have been compromised. but yes, of course, the intelligence community and the pentagon are doing that work.

>> a lot more to answer here, including why a 21-year-old air guardsman can print out and walk out of a facility with that information. ranking member of the house intelligence committee, democratic congressman jim hynes of connecticut, thanks as always, appreciate it. turning to football, 125,000 people showed up last night to attend the 2023 nfl draft in kansas city. millions more, of course, watching on tv. lots of intrigue here. including a long wait for one of the best quarterback prospects in the draft. nbc news correspondent kaylee hartung has a recap of an eventful first night. >> in front of a roaring crowd in kansas city, the informal kicking off its eagerly anticipated draft in style and getting down to business. >> the carolina panthers select bryce young, cornerback, alabama. >> as expected, heisman trophy winner bryce young getting the first call of the night, rocking a pink dior suit and a huge

smile on his face. >> i'm going to try to live in the moment. >> young, an only child, thanking his parents for their unwavering support. >> i wouldn't want to be here with anyone else. >> and then a power move. >> the first big mystery of the 2023 draft is about to be solved. >> immediately after snagging their own qb second overall -- >> the houston texanses select c.j. stroud, the texans trading up to make back-to-back picks, nagging defensive star will anderson. >> this is one of the most remarkable beginnings of an nfl draft. >> when your mom hugged you in that green room -- >> anderson showing us makeup left behind on his jacket from his proud mom. >> that lady is so special. she puts the world on her back for all of her kids. so mom, you good. i got you. >> reporter: life-changing moments for so many families, including anthony richardsons, as the colts picked him fourth

overall. >> i cried like four different times. and i finally settled and it hit me i'm an nfl quarterback. >> with the sixth pick, arizona tapping the recipient of the 2022 armed forces merit award. his tireless work serving disabled veterans and student athletes setting him apart. >> what i do off the field is just as great and i put in the same amount of work as i do on the field. >> hard work and dedication rewarded for 31 young men, as they celebrate a new beginning and challenge in the nfl. >> how does the dream compare to the reality? >> it's more sweet than you would think. i think the process is special, but this is icing on the cake. >> kaylee hartung reporting there. jennifer palmieri joins us now from the site of the nfl jennifer palmari is joining us from the site. usually talking to us about politics, but this morning she is our mel kiper jr. i love that you were there at the draft. and you sent over some deep

notes, like you really know your stuff. you've really analyzed this. so we can talk about will levis in a second, some people thought that he would be the first pick and has not even gone in the first round. what else jumped out at you last night? >> that was the big thing everybody was talking about, was first of all quarterbacks in general, right, because you had three of the top five picks were quarterbacks. bryce young, c.j. stroud and anthony richardson. richardson was sort of a surprise. most people thought that will levis would go ahead of richardson. and he is a monster talent, but only played 13 games as a quarterback last year, so people weren't so sure about what they actually bought into. and also just patrick mahomes started the night, he came out with the batman strut with the vince lombardi trophy.

he can strut like no other. he is like an old man now as a 27-year-old quarterback. you know, you have trevor lawrence and then these three joining the nfl next year. and so the new era of the new quarterback is definitely here. and then the other thing that just stood out is what is -- talk about a major cultural force in america, the nfl, there were 125,000 people here last night. and it was just a blast. and as a political person, i'm interested to talk to people why are they here, why is football important to you. and it is a lot of family ties, it is how people bond as a family, that they played as kids or their dad played football or it is a way of forming community. and i got to say, it was a blast. it is fun to be around winners and the thing with the draft is, you know, the losers are still

in the greenroom and you don't have to contend with that. >> what is amazing too, it is in kansas city, so they get the last pick because they won the super bowl. so it is not even like the fans are there to cheer for that first pick of bryce young. they get a rather unremarkable pick at the end of the draft. but that experience, i'm thinking about nashville a couple years ago where there were hundreds of thousands of people. and what the nfl has created in this event that is just to pick the next players, it is not a game, not the super bowl, but it comes with all the excitement and energy of it now. >> yeah, and it started as an accident. the nfl was telling me they used to do it at radio city music hall. one year it wasn't available about ten years ago so they said let's take it on the road. it will be in detroit next year. a city i love. but detroit has a high bar to meet because kansas city fans really turned out. i mean, willie, how do you feel about our giants pick? >> i feel good.

i mean, we went defense. i was hoping zay flowers still would be there, we need another weapon on the outside. but he went a couple picks earlier. so we went defense, picked a corner back, a very talented young player. but we need some weapons now in the next round, don't you think? >> yes, i mean, i'm not -- i'm a bigger fan than an expert, so i'll refer to you on the picks. but i would like to see a little offense. two other things that stood out from what people are talking about here last night, the eagles picks which obviously we're not excited about, two defense players from georgia. so they will be even more amped up next year. and then the chiefs pick people thought was really smart too. so both the eagles and chiefs have good picks here. and then another big winner, nick saban.

because alabama players were two of the top three picks. so a big night for nick. >> you've got two of the top three picks out of tuscaloosa and nick saban wearing a pink blazer looking resplendent. >> and i'm so glad you talked about how this was a major cultural force. i think that it was also a major cultural moment. i remember several years ago a lot of people saying i'm never going to watch the nfl again, they are kneeling during the pledge of allegiance and never going to watch. it is bigger than ever, first of all, but secondly, i was struck by -- i mean, how traditional values shown through. they did everything but play lee greenwood's i'm proud to be an american. it was so moving, patriotic at the beginning.

you had bryce young talking about his faith in god, the family ties that were there was extraordinary. bryce saying that he wants to be there with his parents, his family means the world to him. i was so moved by c.j. stroud. again, talking about his faith. he was asked about his really tough upbringing and he looked right in the camera and send the message is, kids, i had a really tough upbringing and look at where i am. i'm here because of my faith in god because that faith toughened me. i'm here because i worked hard because i was disciplined. and there he is, c.j., and he said i promise you, if you do that, you can be here too. and so patriotism was on display, faith was on display, family was on display. and it was a pretty remarkable cultual moment that we wouldn't

have seen 20 years ago, 25 years yearsing ago. >> a dominant force in american culture. my favorite part was talking to the people in the crowd. when i asked what everybody loved about football, nobody brought up the actual game. first thing they said is the joy that the game brings them, watching the players grow, watching their skill, what inspires them. and really just it is all -- it always came back to some kind of family connection. because so much has changed in the world, it has been such tough times, this seems to be a constant that people are really gravitating towards. and also it was great because there was no any talk of politics. but i will note that ron desantis is running ads in kansas city. >> good to know. and all of these i call them kids because i'm so old, all of these kids talked about faith, they talked about their family, they talked about hard work.

they talked about going through adversity. i mean, anybody would want any of their children to listen to the messages of these extraordinarily successful players. >> and it is important because with the broad view that the games get and the pick gets, to see these kids that come out of some very desperate situations. but have hope and faith and believe in what we want them to believe in. i think that that is an important message because they are not running around coming something wrong which is why they should be targeted or staer yoe typed in ways that we fight. >> exactly. >> fabulous. thank you very much for being on this morning. and coming up on this friday morning, a dramatic new development in the special counsel's probe into former president trump's effort to overturn the 2020 election. former vice president mike pence appears before a federal grand jury offering what could be

critical testimony about trump's role in the january 6th capitol attack. and before we go to break, willie, what do you have planned for "sunday today"? >> i'm nearly as excited as young jack scarborough about this one. i have the great stanley tucci on the show. >> he'll love that one. >> he is just the best. whether you loved him in "big night" or prada on i ", or where he toured italy. a lot of fun, and a great conversation. one of the most talented actors and gentleman in hollywood. stanley tucci is coming up this sunday on "sunday today" on nbc. what causes a curve down there? is it peyronie's disease? will it get worse? how common is it?

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lindsey graham the progressive from south carolina -- no, he is a progressive. but he's got some good things too, okay? >> sorry i'm so upset, but please help president trump, if you can afford five or ten bucks, a dollar, fine, just pray. >> the progressive from south carolina. >> but you need to help this man, donald j. trump, they are trying to drain him dry. >> he is a progressive. >> and if you got any money to

give, give it. >> but he's got some good things too. >> go tonight, give the president some money to fight this [ bleep ]. >> lindsey graham the progressive from south carolina. >> you know -- >> oh, boy. >> it is like my southern mom said, no good deed goes unpunished. >> if you are a dog trainer and you can make a dog heel that quickly, you are a genius. >> and he'll be back, lindsey graham will be back. you scream at him and he is more loyal. willie, i'd love to show you the front of the paper of -- can you believe this? this is a paper of record. just really quickly, like what is this, front page. come on, put that down. i guess it is sports straighted time, rev.

>> i don't forgive them. >> what is going on. >> you know, it is just that time of year for the new york "post." >> moving right along. >> so we're in new york city and you know i'm a simple country lawyer. i'm a cave man lawyer some people have said as well. but even i don't -- >> mediocre. >> a mediocre cave man lawyer. you have to ride with that red sox thing. >> every day. >> every day of my life. >> i see a new sweat shirt. we need you're mediocre. >> i like that. so her father calls me stunningly superficial, she calls me mountain of immediate okay kritity, i'm trying to figure out who do i need to be more insulted by.

>> we need merch. >> and so again, i'm just a simple country lawyer, but i would think that an attorney in new york city would not be screaming at a woman who is saying his client raped her. and time and time again as e. jean carroll was telling the jury this just horrific story about how she was raped. joe tacopina was berating her, yelling at her. the judge completely had to call him off. this rape -- this trial involving a possible rape not going well for donald trump. >> well, yeah, the accounts from inside the courtroom from people who were there yesterday is that joe tacopina, a familiar figure to a lot of people because he's

been representing donald trump in the other case in manhattan, was effectively harassing e. jean carroll on the stand as she told the story of what she says happened to her in the 1990s in that dressing room with donald trump. and the judge finally stopping to admonish tacopina and say, hey, you will have time to make a closing argument. now is not the time for that. sort of him chiming in and interrupting e. jean carroll throughout in a way that the judge thought was argumentative. so by most accounts, it was pretty ugly in that courtroom yesterday. >> and you are neither a country lawyer or mediocre like me, so perhaps you can just verify for our friends at home, not good to yell at somebody who could have been a rape victim on the stand. >> i've cross-examined victims like this. it is really, really difficult and you have to be very careful. it is one thing to cross-examine a cooperating witness, a criminal testifying against another criminal. and then you can lay on the

fireworks. but when you are cross-examining a victim of sexual assault, you have to be extra careful. you still have to explore things like their ability to perceive, their memory, whether or not they are motivated by something else. and of course in this days, and it is not a fun thing to talk about, but you have to explore why she took so long to report this. and we know now that victims of sexual assault often never report because of fear of reprisal or things like that. >> and it is pretty easy, she was scared. i mean, what is the percentage of women who were victims of sexual assault, sexual abuse, rape that will not respond because they don't want to go up on the stand and be abused by the rapist's attorney. >> there is so little incentive for women to put themselves through that and go up on the stand. the choice to attack the

accuser. but why doesn't he have a female lawyer? >> that would be a good strategy, you're right. >> and he's not even showing up. >> in a civilcase, you don't have to. but i think that he is already conceding the battle. he's already had a deposition and you gave wide ranging essentially interview but you are locked in to your testimony. the way trump's team probably sees it, far better to take my deposition if i'm not there, show the jury the video, even cherrypick the good parts for the plaintiff, that is far preferable than me taking the stand in open court and letting plaintiff's attorney take shots at me. if it means he loses the civil case, fine, but in his mind he's winning a political war. >> and he can't cherrypick the "access hollywood" tape which basically reveal what is his attitude has long been toward women. and of course i think that is

one of the reasons he didn't want to be in there because he would have to confront his own words and his own actions. and again, right now, think about it, we talk about all these other cases that are going on right now, this may be a civil case, but this is a case involving donald trump raping somebody. raping somebody. we talk about payoffs to porn stars, this is a case where he has been accused of rape. he is not even showing up. his lawyer screaming at the possible rape victim. and it is not going well. >> it is not going well. and that "access hollywood" tape by the way is admissible. and likely will be used in this trial by e. jean carroll's lawyers. yeah, the tone, danny i'm curious what you think of how this settles out, because it is a civil case and the standard is different, but the tone from joe tacopina yesterday was why didn't you scream. if this was so bad, why didn't

you scream out. she said i was terrified, i didn't know what do, all the things rape victims are often harassed about we heard in that courtroom yesterday. but what is the bar here for a civil judgment unlike a criminal trial? >> it is preponderance of the evidence. probably the only burden of proof that can be expressed mathematically. beyond a reasonable doubt is the criminal standard. as lawyers like me will argue in closing, it is such a high standard. it doesn't mean beyond all doubt, it just means if you hesitate the way you might when you look at possibly buying a house or something like that. but preponderance of the evidence could be basically 51% because it is more likely than not, or more accurately 50.00001%. whatever tips the needle one way or another. so a much lesser burden, much easier to make out. that is why so many civil cases settle because defendants know they are facing a very difficult burden and they would rather

manage the risk and end up paying money they know that they can quantify today rather than just some runaway jury's verdict later on in the future and then they have to spend more money appealing it. so the burden here is much lighter, but i have to say, the tone maybe could have been changed, but a defense attorney in a case like this, whether it is criminal or civil, because it really mirrors a criminal case, he has to explore the credibility of the victim on cross-examination. he has to do it. the way you do it, you have to be nuanced. you have to be polite, you have to be respectful of the witness. so that is the key. and if you don't, the jury will see that and they are not going to like it. so it is a needle that you have to thread. and i got to tell you, it is hard to thread that needle. i've done it myself. i don't know if i've done it successfully, but it is hard. >> and you know joe tacopina very well. he didn't thread any needle yesterday. he just kind of kicked open the

barn door and went in. >> i was surprised at how aggressive he was. and as particularly given his client who he knows has a tape on this saying you just grab them. if you want to indict yourself, just play the tape. >> and he's laughing about that. >> and he's instructing somebody how do it. >> he said this is how you do it. >> this was not joe's best day. >> joe tacopina, that is. also news with mike pence, he ended up testifying after all of the twists and turns and the protesting too much. he testified. he always knew he was going to have to testify. good exactly. it was before a federal grand jury investigating the january 6 insurrection. this is according to a source familiar with the matter. this is the grand jury that was convened by special counsel jack smith investigating former president trump's efforts to

overturn the 2020 election loss. and stay in power. two black suvs entered the courthouse garage around 9:00 a.m., an entrance that would allow witnesses to head up to the grand jury room without being seen by the public. the suvs left the courthouse about 4:30 p.m. nbc news has learned special counsel jack smith's team is particularly interested in trump's efforts to try to block the certification of the election. and, joe, i guess, you know, the new naivety in me is why wouldn't he want to testify about something so important. if you follow mike pence, there might be a lot of things that you think why did he serve for trump for so long, what was his motivation. at the same time if it was his commitment to the country, isn't his commitment to the country also to testify about this. >> listen, he had to know -- his

lawyers had to tell him from the beginning, because we could have told him, you're going to have to testify. you look at every one of these issues, the supreme court have been brushing aside assertions of privilege from the very beginning. they are not going to stand in the way of any investigation regarding january 6. again, 63, 64 times these federal judges even federal judges who are appointed by the federalist society didn't buy into any of the lies regarding the widespread election fraud. they are just not playing. so pence knew this, but he could look like a locked in witness for the republican primary voters. that is what he did. but he knew he would have to go there. and so, david, you're the one with all the great doj sources. spill it here. what are they doing, where are they going. i know a lot of people like claire mccaskill says justice delayed is justice denied.

i understand this january 6 case is the most complicated. doesn't seem like that obstruction case is so complicated on the documents. talk about the doj's pacing of their investigations. >> i think that it has picked up a lot under jack smith. the most important january 6 witness in terms of, you know, trump's mindset, his intent, is mike pence. did trump knowingly pressure him to overturn the results of the election. should he -- did he know or should he have known that this was illegal. so it was a big step forward. there is talk of, you know, in the obstruction case also a very clear case, and so i think that you could see jack smith, you know, doing something, making a decision this summer maybe. >> going to be a busy summer. >> it will be a very busy summer, but he has been very aggressive on all these fronts. >> danny, i'm curious, your take not only on this, but all of the

cases. it is a potpourri for us to pick from. i'll tell you what i've seen in polling and it makes sense actually, we all get the obstruction. he did something that biden and pence didn't do, there is something about that georgia case that really wrangles voters. they say yeah, wherd the phone call where he is talking to supporter and he is saying just get me enough votes to overturn it. that is coming this summer. the documents case most likely coming this summer. i'm sure january of may be after all of that since it is such a complex case. but how do you see all of these things lining up. understanding we're going to be in full election mode by late august or early september. >> we may be thinking about what kurts will priorize criminal

prosecution of a former president and how will the courts decide whether or not to have trial before or after the election. it is really not always just up to the courts. courts work with litigants. so the question is what do the litigants want, what does trump want, what does the government want if they indict him. and i always thought georgia presented a real threat because i never imagined that the manhattan d.a. posted any threat. just my opinion. i didn't think -- that was not a case that was high on my list of potential -- >> let's circle back to that. we asked, why did he bring that? if alvin bragg was going to bring that, i expected more because he had said no a year before. he comes back later and i'm thinking, well, 847 million counts of felonies, there has to be something there, right? there was nothing. nothing that he didn't have a year before when he decided not go forward. have you figured that out?

>> exactly right. and all the counts were related to hush money payments which i think are hugely problematic because this was i guess you'd call it a task force of really brilliant people including mark pomerantz who wrote a tell-all book which really for me was like a groundbreaking event because for the first time a defense attorney like me got a look at the inner workings of a task force of really brilliant prosecutors. >> what did you find? what did you find in reading it? >> i found that -- well, according to mark pomerantz, that he confirmed something that i always thought was true. that prosecutors whether state or federal are subtly or psychologically reluctant to indict a former president. >> that makes a lot of sense. so why did he do it a year later when he didn't have any new evidence? that is the part i don't get that part. >> that is the part we don't get. and i understand that prosecutors -- look, prosecutors are judged very much on wins and losses and going after the most

difficult defendant of all-time is a scary prospectprospect. maybe that explains the waffling back and forth. but if bragg was in the no camp, what brought him back to the yes camp. and if they were investigating all these other things like new york's equivalent of the rico stat chus, tax violation, inflaing your value for loans and deflating it for taxes. why were none of those in there, why were we only dealing with hush money payments. and if the answer is as prosecutors we only like sure thing, we only like things we know we can prove, i don't know if that is a good enough answer for me. because if you spend that much time investigating him and you think that he did something wrong, then you should indict. that is kind of the thesis of pomerantz's book. don't shy away from a difficult prosecution. and instead we have all these multiple counts. until the very end, joe, i held out hope that there would be something in addition to the hush money payments. because i've always thought they were problematic.

>> and willie, again, there are so many strong cases against donald trump. the obstruction case, i'm sorry, easy for me to say from the cheap seats, but it looks like a slam dunk. obstruction case looks like a slam dunk. georgia, man, the fact pattern, horrible for donald trump. they got tapes. it is not good. that is not going to end well. so again, you just kind of wonder why alvin bragg if he didn't have anything else didn't just let the strong cases move forward. >> and just think for a second as you sit and listen to this conversation you're watching at home what we're talking about. this is a former president in the united states just in the first 20 minutes of this show listed four or five now with the civil rape trial different cases that this guy is in the middle of as he runs for president. >> a rape trial, civil rape trial, hush payments to porn stars, rigging an election in georgia that they got caught on

tape and lying to the doj, make america great again? i think not. >> or taking documents to your beach club in florida. we can add that to the list as well. so jonathan lemire, you wrote the big on this, "the big lie" and we get back to mike pence's testimony yesterday. it is worth reminding everyone what he knows, what he might be able and willing to share with the grand jury in this case. he did as joe said offer that token pressure, refusing the subpoena, donald trump fought against the subpoena, courts again and again said no, you have to show up and mike pence knew that. but went through those tapes to show that he was pushing back a little bit, i guess. but what do you think he shared yesterday, what did he go through in those days around january 6 and leading up to january 20th? >> first of all, i think that is the right analysis of the political calculation in the year 2023. pence having to play it both ways. no one is really quite sure what

his lane is in the gop primary, but he needed to be seen as fighting back against a biden justice department in an investigation against donald trump. mike pence was of course at the center of the scheme to overturn the election. trump and his allies, worth reflecting back on this, in those days after the election when it seemed clear that their initial legal challenges weren't going to go anywhere, his team concocted scheme after scheme in terms of how they could overturn the election and a lot of them centered on the idea of substituting fake electors and therefore having those thrown out and have the house of representatives potentially throw with mike pence helping throw the race to donald trump. and mike pence was pressured. he was pressured by trump, he was pressured by others in trump's orbit. we know that pence consulted

former vice president dan quayle as to what do. dan quayle remains an unlikely hero of the republic here. >> hey, mark that down. hold on. >> doesn't happen often. >> savior of republic dan quayle. i'm not being facetious here. and i'm so glad you said, david, that mike pence deserves credit for it. >> he stayed in the capitol. he refused to leave. he oversaw the certification of the vote. >> winston churchill had one good year. he saved western civilization. mike pence had a good day. helped save american democracy. thanks, willie, to dan quayle. a good golfer too i hear. >> ironically i was thinking about dan quayle during this conversation, i have the exchange from bob woodward's book. over and over pence asked if

there was anything that he could do. quail told him, mike, you have no flexibility on this, none, zero, forget it, put it away. and then he goes on to say that mike pence said, but wait, you don't know the position i'm in. dan quayle said i do know the position you're in, i also know what the law is. you listen to the parliamentarian, that is all you do. you have no power. end quote from dan quayle. >> boom. that is great. >> dan quayle was right. what pence can offer perhaps to jack smith and his investigator, he was the only person in the room for some of these conversations. we know on january 5 trump and pence had a one-on-one conversation. pence can testify as to what was said. what efforts did donald trump on the eve of the insurrection, what he said to pence in that last ditch effort. we also know there was one followup phone call the next morning.

so that is why pence can detail everything that we sort of know already from other members of this play, other people in trump's pence and pence alone can speak to those conversations and to trump's mindset in the hours before the insurrection. >> you know, rev in scarborough country days, we had a bumper sticker that we sold and it said my other car is an suv. and it is double parked in scarborough country. here "morning joe," we have two bumper stickers for you. one, dan quayle was right. i heard somebody say that. and two, joe scarborough is both stunningly superficial and miraculously mediocre. that is a good one. >> i have it on a hoodie already. >> stunningly superficial on the back, miraculously mediocre on the front. >> we'll sell it in front of 30 rock. but i think that what is critical about what we just

talked about is that the quayle conversation also meant that pence was put on notice this is the law. and what trump was asking him to do is to say, well, we were guessing when he was told by a former vice president that there is nothing to guess here. there is no flexibility. and so pence had to choose not only between trump and the law, but himself because you have a witness in dan quayle, i told him this was the law. >> that's right. >> mika, i was on my world tour of mediocrity, i may have missed this, but did you ever apologize to danny for getting the rust set thing right? >> let me get in position here. >> did you ever apologize? because you ripped him up pretty badly when you said the charges should never have been brought. >> yeah, i did say that.

>> good morning, mika. >> can we just do a split with them really quickly? >> no, no, that is -- danny doesn't want that. >> we'd all like to hear if you have anything to say to danny. >> i'm sorry, danny. >> mika, i'm wrong almost all the time. this one -- it is the broken clock analogy. i happened to be right about "rust." >> in mika's defense, if al beck baldwin and his wife had not opened their big mouths in the after mouth, they probably would have avoided getting charged. >> i can't tell you -- any criminal defense attorney will tell you that client has ruined their case by opening their mouth either before or after they are arrested. it has happened to me and everyone. >> and i was going to say to elyse, we should name him an honorary southerner. you heard the falses modesty. that is what we did. >> bless your heart.

>> but danny, an honorary southerner, mika. >> bless danny's heart. >> thank you, mika. >> he was right. and i was stuck on the whole gun safety issue because i had been taught all my life about gun handling and how you just never point a gun at someone. but, yep, danny, you know the law. that is why we have you on. >> thank you. >> thank you for being on this morning. coming up, joe interviews the president of france, emmanuel macron. their exclusive conversation is just ahead on "morning joe." the chase ink business premier card is made for people like sam who make...? ...everyday products... ...designed smarter. like a smart coffee grinder - that orders fresh beans for you. oh, genius!

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a beautiful look at the united states capitol, a place that we called the people's house that has been a -- it is so fascinating. when i went to poland and we spoke with survivor of the holocaust, that is now -- i know this is hard for some people on the trump right to imagine, but that capitol has now been sort of recharged as the people's house. this survivor of the holocaust saying when we look at the united states capitol on january 6 and we saw how you fought back not just that day but day after day after day, he said i knew exactly what you americans were doing. and you weren't just fighting for yourself, you weren't just fighting for your freedom, you were fighting for all of our

freedoms and he said and i know what i'm talking about. i know how tyrannys begin and that is how tyrannys begin. hard to look at that capitol without thinking about not just the sacrifice of the people on that day, but the professionals who were actually enforcing the rule of law day in and day out across america who are lied about, who were abused, who former president of the united states tries to get their names out, fbi agent names out there and people on other networks trying to get fbi agents' names out there to put their lives at risk and their families' lives at risk. and their patriotic work, it is being noticed and it is being noticed not just in america, but from people who love freedom across the globe. speaking of loving freedom and fighting for western democracy

and fighting for free elections, for freedom of the press, because this is something also that we talked about in poland on the 80th anniversary of the warsaw ghetto uprising, freedom of the press. talked about how critical a free press was. to pushing it back against the constant lies which brings us to evan gershovich in jail on bogus charges by a regime that actually expects one day to be admitted back into the world community. where is this right now? >> so yesterday -- >> first of all, your background obviously you have been through this. >> yes, with the taliban. evan gershovich, brave 31-year-old reporter. yesterday the u.s. put sanctions on fsb, russian intelligence agency, for holding evan, paul whelan another american held for five years and also sanctions on

iran's intelligence agencies. and there are three americans currently being held in iran. it is about silencing the press. it is about freedom of information. >> and talk about what evan was doing. >> he was showing the impact of the sanctions on the russian economy, he was doing nothing wrong. i've met countless friends of him, he is an amazing guy. i was so proud of how he stood? court there and looked so strong. great to see brittney griner playing basketball again and smiling and also saying that she is thinking of him. so 53 americans held abroad right now, most by authorian regimes. these sanctions are a step to deter that, but this will be a long struggle. but this is part of the fight for democracy. coming up, we'll speak with the president of the white house correspondence association to preview this year's annual dinner and events. that is just ahead on "morning joe."

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welcome back. now to the latest on florida governor ron desantis. during a news conference in jerusalem yesterday -- >> wait a second. wait, wait. they are still in session. he said he couldn't run because he had to stay in tallahassee. >> he is in jerusalem. >> jerusalem, florida? i've never heard of jerusalem, florida. where is jerusalem, florida? >> not jerusalem, florida. >> okay. >> he is out of the country. florida governor ron desantis appeared to brush off a new lawsuit filed -- >> wasn't he just in tokyo? wasn't he just in tokyo? what is he doing? is it safe to ask, what is this guy doing? >> burnishing his credentials because he has no foreign policy

experience and needs to do the obligatory tour, jay. >> a little late for that. >> and there is this lawsuit filed against him by walt disney. take a look. the company. >> they are upset because they are actually having to live by the same rules as everybody else. they don't want to have to pay the same taxes as everybody else and they want to be able to control things without proper oversight where every other floridian has to have this type of oversight. i don't think the suit has merit. i think it is political. i think that they filed in tallahassee for a reason because they are trying to generate, you know, some district court decision. but we're very confident on the law. >> governor desantis commenting on the lawsuit from jerusalem yesterday. meanwhile, some republicans are voicing concern over desantis' ongoing fight with disney. here is what florida senator marco rubio and house speaker kevin mccarthy said yesterday.

>> i think that where it gets problematic in the eyes of some people is when you start creating the idea, and not saying that we're there yet, but if you run crossways with us politically whoever is in charge, then you may wind up in the crosshairs of the legislature for political purposes. so i don't think that disney will go anywhere. they have invested a lot of money and time. i do worry that if this happens too many times, businesses that are thinking about coming to florida are saying maybe we don't want go there because if we get into a firestorm with them politically, they will come after our business. >> this is a big employer inside florida. i think that the governor should -- i don't think the idea of building a prison next to the place that you bring your families would be a good idea. >> and pointing to the fact that, yes, governor desantis floated the idea of putting a prison next to disney world to punish them. again worth going back to what this is all about. this is last year the previous ceo of disney who is not there

anymore came out and criticized on behalf of the company this legislation, this law about sexuality and talking about gender and sexual orientation in schools in florida. hurt ron desantis' feelings. and now he's dealing with a different ceo, bob iger. and this idea of a special district in florida is not unique to disney. the villages, that sprawling retirement community, has one as well and as does daytona speed way. so the question to put to governor desantis, should those two places also have their status removed. >> just shows that he is again picking on disney. he is going straight after disney for political reasons and the fact that the villages and also daytona also have the same setup, obviously shows that this is political retribution. so interesting to see what the federal court does. again, desantis should sue for

peace, i don't say it every day for my health. you won't beat bob iger. you're just not, ronnie. time to move on. coming up, can and i him toic energy solve climate change? oliver stone tackles that question in a new documentary. he will join us with a ph.d. he will join us with a ph.d. professor who is making the case (water splashing) hey, dad... hum... what's the ocean like? ♪ are there animals living underwater?

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if we do not cut carbon emissions by nearly 100%, the world will suffer serious damage. this is an even bigger problem than we thought. >> the answer to solving climate change is very straightforward. >> what is the best solution in your mind some. >> largely nuclear. >> nuclear. >> nuclear. >> we've been trained from the very beginning to fear nuclear power. the very thing that we fear is what may save us. >> what is scary is not the same

as what is dangerous. coal is dangerous. more people die from coal in a couple of weeks than have ever died from nuclear which is all from the one accident in chernobyl. >> first question is what about the waste. nuclear waste is nothing compared to climate change. >> once you understand it, people have a better sense of not being afraid. >> can nuclear energy be the solution to combatting the climate crisis? the new documentary entitled "nuclear now" argues a resounding yes to that question. the latest project from oliver stone. it dives into the recent advancements in nuclear energy and why that technology may be our best hope. joining us now, co-writer and director oliver stone and joshua

goldstein. good to have you both with us. mr. stone, i know you all take on head-on the fearof nuclear. and it seems like and correct me if i'm wrong that you are allying some fears of nuclear but also trying to put into perspective the fears we should be having about the current state of climate change. >> yeah, i didn't have a horse in this race. i was for many years on -- just went along with the consensus. i was very influenced by the 1970s against nuclear. but over this last period since al gore's film came out, it has just been very important to question the future of my children and grandchildren. this is very, very difficult, but absolutely no question it's been important to question the future. my children and grandchildren are at stake here. there's no question after all this investigation that we need nuclear energy. it's not the only power system,

but it is the most important one and it can be done in a mass quality of it. the question is, of course, many different versions of this. the important thing is, it's inspiring. we have to remember this energy is a magic gift to the earth. from albert einstein on, it's worked and it's proven to work. let josh tell you because he's really the expert. >> absolutely. joshua, you wrote the book as well as the cowriter on this. i would ask you to make the case for nuclear given all the other options out there. you know it more than anybody. there are really strong fears about the safety issue. >> there's a lot of good solutions for climate change that are in the work, but

nuclear is proven. we know that it worked. we saw france take fossil fuel off its grid and brought in nuclear instead. france has one of the cleanest grids in the world now. sweden did, ontario, toronto, they haven't had any accidents or problems. this is a proven solution. i have a new grandchild. i don't want to bet her future on something unproven. i want something i know works. we have to come to terms with not just taking steps on climate change, but taking steps we know will get us to the solution. >> this seems like a pretty common sense solution to helping alleviate the problem of climate change when progress has been so stagnant. it's just something we have to change our mindset about as a society. what are the entrenched lobbies

against doing this if it is the best way to alleviate climate change? >> they always cite the accidents and the nuclear waste. we exam the accidents in detail. we talk about three mile island. no one died. the containment structure worked. at fukushima the containment structure worked about. there was low level radiation. not one japanese died from the radiation. they died from the tsunami. they call that a nuclear disaster. that's not accurate. the russian government was responsible for sending in first responders without significant protection. >> josh, you're really an expert on how this would play out if we did expand the use of nuclear

energy in the united states. if it did become a policy, what would it look like. >> we have the large reactors like the one in georgia right now. there's small reactors that can be built in a factory so they're cheaper and safer and better engineered. micro reactors are also an option. until we stop being so afraid of them, it's hard to build them. >> if you look at the last 70 years, nuclear power has been the safest form of generating energy, especially compared to coal, which is still the number one way the world makes electricity. it kills millions of people. nuclear's has this one serious accident in 70 years. it's hundreds of times safer,

and yet we feel scared of it. >> i went to france, i went to russia and saw people working. i saw a whole new generation of young people like yourself who are getting involved and don't have the old taboos. it's mostly the environmentalist generation from the '70s that really put a block on this. you remember china syndrome. hollywood did no favors to nuclear at all. i'm the first guy from hollywood who's actually said something positive about it. it's got to be turned around. our future is at stake. >> the war in ukraine has shed new light on the reliance on russian oil and gas. we're seeing some countries move away from nuclear power.

>> there's a lot of forward momentum and in europe there's forward momentum because they over relied on russian gas and it turned out to be a bad gamble. that's what half of europe is doing now, poland, czech republic, eastern europe, u.k., france and canada is going in big time to build more nuclear now. prime minister trudeau was bragging to the german president that they were going to steal companies like volkswagon because they have reliable nuclear power and germany has this system of trying to get off of nuclear power, but they're just using coal or unreliable

sources and patching them together. there's a place for all these sources, but you need a backbone if you're going to run a modern economy. >> "nuclear now" is opened nationwide may 1st. learn more at nuclearnowfilm.com. oliver stone and joshua goldstein, thank you so much for being on. coming up, trump returns to the campaign trail with criticism for fellow republicans and praise for kim jong-un. robert gibbs will join us to weigh in on the 2024 race. weigh in on the 2024 race. soal

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welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." it's 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. in the east. coming up this hour, joe's live interview with french president emanuel macron. that's coming up in just a few moments. we'll start this hour in washington, where former vice president mike pence has testified before the federal grand jury investigating the january 6th insurrection, offering what could be critical testimony about donald trump's role in the capitol attack. and as pence was testifying, the former president took his 2024 campaign to new hampshire. kristin welker has the latest. >> reporter: as 2024 ramps up, former president trump campaigning in new hampshire, making his first public comments about his former vice president mike pence's historic testimony before a grand jury investigating mr. trump's efforts to overturn the 2020

election and the january 6th attack, speaking exclusively with nbc's john allen. >> what do you think of mike pence testifying today? >> i don't know what he said. >> reporter: mr. trump also repurposing a familiar line of attack from 2016. >> i will be retiring the name crooked from hillary clinton so we can use the name for joe biden. he'll be known from now on as crooked joe biden. >> reporter: a spokesperson brushing off the attack saying donald trump and his family used his presidency to rake in billions with shady deals from china and saudi arabia. the former president also taking aim at mr. biden's economic record. >> he took our booming economy and promptly blew it to shreds. >> reporter: the dnc calls mr.

trump's stewardship of the economy an abject disaster, noting more than 12 million jobs have been created under the biden administration. president biden addressed supporters. >> this is about our freedoms. maga republicans are trying to take us backwards. but together we're not going to let them do that. >> reporter: it comes as the gop field continues to take shape. mr. trump's leading potential rival florida governor ron desantis is trying to bolster his foreign policy credentials, visiting four key u.s. allies as part of an international trade mission. >> joining us now former white house press secretary under president obama robert gibbs. i'm just curious your take on

donald trump's candidacy as it stands right you, taking questions on the campaign trail in new hampshire about mike pence testifying before a federal grand jury. at the same time, he had a pretty big crowd. >> yeah. i think if you look at national polling, if you look at the crowds, if you look at the dynamics within the republican primary, you'd have to think donald trump's had a pretty good four months as it relates to getting the nomination. whether that next four months is good given the investigations sitting in front of him with the special counsel, the investigation going on in georgia where we expect some news over the summer, i think a lot remains to be seen. it's still early yet in all of this. the one big difference is donald trump is full-on playing presidential campaign. what i mean by that is, he is taking the wood to both

democrats and republicans, particularly to republicans. the challenge that some of his republican counterparts is they're not playing that campaign. they're running a positive campaign and ignoring him. i don't think that's worked all that well. >> moving to president biden who announced that he's running for reelection. then you have people alluding to the issue of his age. then nikki haley outright saying it. i'm still kind of shook by this. we played it an hour or two ago. let's play it again. here is republican presidential candidate nikki haley talking about whether or not joe biden might die. take a look. >> he's announced that he's running again in 2024. i think that we can all be very clear and say with matter of fact that if you vote for joe

biden you really are counting on a president harris, because the idea he would make it to 86 years old is not something i think is likely. >> who says that? first of all, your reaction? >> well, you can almost tell as she's giving her answer she knows she's going down this path and it's going to end up in a place that's not all that good. look, i think the biden campaign knows they're going to have to address the issue of age. they're going to have to show on the campaign trail and in the white house that the president is capable of doing the job of president. but the truth is nikki haley is going to have to show that she's capable of having the experience to be president, ron desantis is going to have to show that same thing. donald trump is going to have to prove that he has lots of different things in order to be

reelected president. voters are going to look across their choices and decide who they think is best positioned, has the best ideas and the best temperament and experience to be president. i don't think those questions are just coming to joe biden. >> my take on this, first of all, nikki haley i guess was the first to allude that joe biden is past his prime. i think the white house can be a better job and is doing a pretty good job of pointing out his list of points on the board compared to most presidents in history. this president has gotten a lot done. he has worked with the other side when possible. he has passed legislation. he has done everything he can to

move forward on policies and legislation that he believes in. the talk about his age, there's one other problem with that. a lot of voters are 60, 70, 80 years old and they don't like being counted out. i think the white house could do a better job talking about counting out a huge segment of the population. you don't count women out and say they're past their prime. you don't count candidates out saying they're past their prime. and you don't count voters out, saying, oh, you're past your prime, it's not even worth voting. this is untoward. i don't believe anybody thinks this is a good way to show joe biden shouldn't be reelected. it's actually showing republicans have nothing else to go with, that they're so focused on his age and insulting the american people and their age in the process that they can't

think of anything else to go after joe biden about. i could make a list, but they won't do it because they're so focused on his age. i find that to be revealing. your take? >> yeah. first of all, i do think it reflects a bit of republican desperation. they see poll numbers and some of the extreme positions they're attached to are out of step with the american people. if you're not going to sell a positive vision, you need to go on the attack. the legislative record is there, as is his leadership in helping ukraine defend itself in the war against russia. robert gibbs, you worked in the white house. this white house is very sensitive about the president's age. they tout his travel record. they tout what he's doing. they know polls show this is an

issue for voters as much as even donald trump is only a couple years younger. if you were in the white house, how would you manage the conversation around the president's age and the fact that the vice president is, yes, just a heartbeat away. >> the first thing they do and you see this a lot and i think you'll see this is the big part of the first chapter of the campaign is having the president perform the job well of being president. i know that sounds overly some simplistic. we know the modern news cycle doesn't really allow people to understand everything that's been done in washington. i think you've seen the president increase the number of trips he's taking, travel outside of washington to tout

those accomplishments. you'll see a lot of ribbon cutting at microchip plants and visits to infrastructure projects that both have him outside of the bubble of washington, but also bolstering those accomplishments. i think you'll see the vice president along with him. i think the vice president owning some part of the economic recovery, some part of infrastructure, some part of the science act and things like that, i think would be helpful for her. her having a strong economic narrative that goes along with the strong record on abortion rights and gun safety will be important for really the whole ticket in campaigning. i think in the end a lot of this is going to come down to what does our economic recovery look like in early to mid 2024. coming up on "morning joe," andrew ross sorkin has business

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it's been a turbulent week for first republic bank. days after reporting disastrous first quarter results, the bank is reportedly still looking for a lifeline. let's bring in andrew ross sorkin with the latest. >> it looks like this may be the weekend for either some kind of private market solution or perhaps this time around a, quote, resolution of the firm, in that case a government intervention. that's what's on the table at this point. this is a company that's lost 50% of its deposits. the big question now is whether there are enough private firms that are going to come in and

try to save this company. it will probably cost $30 billion either way, oddly enough. if the bank fails, you're going to have the fdic come in. the fdic is all the other banks. there's going to be a cost to them whether they try to save it in a private market solution or a public market solution. you may remember about 11 banks gave first republic $30 billion in deposits, uninsured deposits just to sit there to try to strengthen the firm's balance sheet. what happens to them? is this, quote, unquote, implicit guarantee -- janet yellen has told everybody you should feel comfortable and safe with your money there.

that's going to be a fascinating question to discover this weekend how all of this gets resolved. >> thank you very much. washington's press corps will gather tomorrow for the white house correspondents dinner, an event that raises money to support current journalists and scholarships for the press of the future. joining us now president of the white house correspondents association board tamara keith. she's white house correspondent for npr and cohost of the npr politics podcast. great to have you on the show. we love talking about this event. it can be a controversial event. it can be a really fun and funny event sort of where the press and the white house get to make fun of each other. this year might be a little bit different. tell us what we can expect in terms of the dinner itself. >> one big difference is that both the president and the vice

president will be up there on stage. that hasn't happened since 2009. in 2016, president biden was vice president. he was there, but he was sitting out in the audience, i think next to helen mirren. that's a big difference is having the second gentleman and first lady up there on stage. i really see that as an endorsement of the important work of the press broadly in american democracy. >> jonathan lemire. great to see you. so much of the focus is going to be on our colleague at the "wall street journal" who has been detained in russia. we last saw evan on a clip where he was literally in a cage in a courtroom in moscow. our thoughts are with him and his family. tell us a little bit more about what the dinner is going to be about in terms of shining a spotlight on him and also what we might hear from the president

himself. >> i don't know precisely what the president is going to say, though we do expect him to address evan. evan's family will be there in the room for the dinner seated with the "wall street journal." also, debra tice will be at the dinner seated with the "washington post." her son austin tice was taken captive more than a decade ago in syria. we were hoping he'd be home by now and he is not. the "wall street journal" will be passing out pins and buttons to free evan and drawing attention to that. i do want people to be aware it will also be a dinner that's about comedy. we work in the news business. there's always comedy and tragedy right next to each other. roy wood jr. is our featured

entertainer saturday night. he's incredible. what he does is he just doesn't take the easy punch line. he's always looking for that third angle, if you will. there aren't two sides, there are many sidsides. he's always looking to twist his jokes just a little bit in a way that no one is expecting. i think he's going to surprise us with his humor. in theory, the president will also be funny at some point, but i know he's also going to be serious. my speech will be deadly earnest. >> president of the white house correspondents association tamara keith, thank you very much. coming up, we're going to have the latest from ukraine, a deadly attack on the part of the russians. also, we are waiting for joe's live interview with french president emanuel macron. that's going to be happening at

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turning now to the war in ukraine and russia's first attack on the capital of kyiv in nearly two months. earlier today, russia fired more than 20 cruise missiles throughout ukraine, killing at least 17 people. 15 died in a strike on a residential building in the central part of the city, and two others were killed in the eastern city of dnipro. kyiv's anti-aircraft systems were activated early this morning, followed by air sirens, according to the city's administration. 11 cruise missiles and two drones were shot down above kyiv. there are no reports of missiles hitting targets. this was russia's first attack on the capital since march 9th. we will be following that developing story. as we prepare to watch joe's live interview in new york city with the president of france, emanuel macron, i want to talk to you a little bit just wrapping up the week.

we saw a seismic shift in cable news with the firing of tucker carlson. do you think there will be long-term impact there? >> yeah, i do think so. i think there's a series of questions we'd love to know more information about. what exactly pushed the murdochs into finally getting rid of somebody like tucker carlson after all the objectionable things he said? i think what's fascinating is what comes in his place. we've seen a real dropoff in the numbers at that time slot. who does fox replace tucker with and how objectionable and edgy is that person going to be? this week, our friends at global citizen are holding a two-day event focused on turning ideas into impact to help address the most urgent issues facing humanity and our planet. joe has made his way across town to conduct one interview with a very special guest.

joe? >> mika, thank you so much. we are live right now both on msnbc and at the global citizen event in new york city, focusing on climate change and poverty. we agreed in advance today's topic of conversation would be limited to those two issues that are, of course, the focus of the global citizen now summit. let's welcome the president of france, emanuel macron, who's hosting a summit of the world leaders in paris this june to address these issues among others. he joins us live from paris. mr. president, thank you so much for being here. >> hello, joe. hello, everyone. happy to be with you. [ applause ] >> it's wonderful to see you again. let's start by talking about what you hope to accomplish in june. obviously the last two summits have been seen by some as

disappointments. you've obviously taken that to heart and you want this june to be successful. how does that get accomplished? >> let's wait for the 22nd and the 23rd of june, but we make a big push, first, because we have to build a new consensus. now fight against poverty, to get to carbon neutral by 2050 and the fight for biodiversity are very much linked together. the new consensus is the metrics are now more vetted. we have to decide all together how to face the different challenges of poor countries, emerging countries in this developing world and how much to invest and how to reform the whole infrastructure, world bank, ims, public and private money and how to reengage in your process. so this is the approach.

second, we are preparing this summit with different countries. prime minister modi, south africa, brussels, zambia, a lot of countries from different continents. with emerging and very poor countries as well, because they have to be part of this reshaping and reinvention. third, we will deliver concrete results. we want very concrete actions. this is a summit for a series of coalitions and actions. >> mr. president, yesterday hugh evans, the ceo of global citizen, announced his new global citizen campaign power our planet.

what you and global citizen want to focus on is figuring out how to fill the $16 billion climate funding gap that was already promised to the global south in 2015. so a couple questions here. first of all, what has been the holdup? and what do you plan to do to help the global north move towards filling this gap for the global south? >> look, this is very true that we have to increase the efforts toward the global south. now, the question is when we put these figures -- some of the very poor countries need more subsidies. no loans, no private money there because there is no private money going to some of these countries. so we have to commit for more subsidies very clearly with specific amounts. but it's a country by country

approach. second, for some of the countries, they will request loans. sometimes when we put billions and billions, we put together loans and subsidies. this is very different. third, some others when they have to face with the consequences of climate change, they require some change in the calculations, some change in the debt approach. some of them need public money as a sort of guarantee and private money. so we have to be very precise. this is one of the perspectives of this summit, not to add in a certain way this type of amounts which cannot be compared. second, what we need is a new approach with the poor and

emerging countries, so sort of country by country compact. this is exactly what we managed to do during the past two years in order to decarbonize some economy. this is very precise and concrete. south africa committed to deliver a plan in order to decarbonize its economy. world bank, imf, as well as france, germany and some others have private money committed for very specific financing because we have very specific action. this is exactly what we have to do. chad, zambia or some other

southeast latin american countries need what indonesia or brazil will need. we have to be very precise on how to reengage public money and private money. >> now, just a couple of general issues following up on the new approach to the poorer countries. first of all, there's obviously the $100 billion in imf fund that was given. there's 37 billion still outstanding there. so global citizens are curious about what can be done to unlock that $37 billion to help the poorest countries who obviously are in the most dire need. also, can you address a real concern we're hearing here at this summit and i know you've heard an awful lot there as well, that some of the poorest countries have to pay some of the highest interest rates to

move toward cleaning up their environment. how can that be reformed? >> look, as for the reallocation all those committed to reallocate now have to finalize a plan. this is not yet done. through ratification, vote of the parliament and so on. we agree to go to 20% of allocations to 30%. this is what france will do. we will push during the summit to do so. now it's just a question of implementation. this is as well for the richest country. i want to remind us that we committed to do so. if some countries have difficulty for legal or technical reasons to

reallocate -- second, for the poorest countries and the problem you mentioned, this is very true. but let's be clear, this is because these countries need subsidies and no more loans. we have to agree on the principle and the objective of this summit in paris in june and what i just mentioned when i described the structure of this famous 100 billion. it's that for some countries this is not private money. private money will never go in a very poor country because they have no return and because of the difficulties. it should not be loans sometimes, because this country has such a debt situation or so much difficulties that they cannot afford having loans. they just need subsisubsidies. we have to agree and reset our own approach that in our metrics we have to reinvest in subsidies for certain categories of

countries. this is very true that in order to face inequalities, in order to face food security, health care systems difficulties and climate change, sometimes very poor countries need more subsidies and no more loans. >> mr. president, over the past few days, global citizen has been taking questions from across the world on social media. we've got a great one here from susan francis from the u.k. what are you doing to ensure that countries and companies that have caused loss and damage actually pay into the new loss and damage fund? >> this is very true. you have this approach with oil

and gas companies and different sectors being part of the origins of this loss and damage. it's part of the agenda. this is having a bigger commitment of the richest countries and having a bigger commitment in terms of financing, but i would say fair and right financing. what we want to do is invest in these countries and have more investments in subsidies, in loans to precisely face these consequences. so reengagement of the richest countries in order to reassess the framework. second, we want companies and investors to be sure they will invest in this very country a fair amount of money and especially when they are

involved in sectors being largely involved in the cause of these losses and damages. what we need is not just vague commitments. now, for me in the paris summit, what we want to do so a mechanism and sector by sector for the private sector and for the richest countries through very clear commitments and approach in order to be sure that we invest the right amount of money and bridge the gap with the financing of these countries. >> mr. president, you recently visited china. that made a few headlines in the united states and across the world, as you're aware. as you know, china is the biggest annual emitter of greenhouse gasses in the world.

they're also considered by some metrics to also be a developing country, so they don't have to adhere to some of the strict standards. i'm curious, did you get any assurances from president xi that they would take concrete steps to move towards participating more globally to reduce greenhouse emissions? >> yeah. i think we need three things mainly regarding china. number one, it's to accelerate co2 emissions. they still have a lot of coal plants. they accelerated in comparison with the first announcement they made. what we want them to know is to reach a peak before and to start decreasing that co2 emission. i urged president xi to go in that direction. number two, it's to start

financing and developing with the key emerging countries. they improved on this issue, but we have to be closely coordinated with them and work very closely with them in order to completely stop the financing of new coal plants in their key partners in third countries through china. third, they have to be engaged in this partnership we want to do and what they do with poor and emerging countries, especially in africa. as you know, china finances a lot, african economies especially. we managed two years ago to involve them in our global

framework. one of the objectives of this summit as well is to have china be engaged with us. now, what we want to do with china is to completely engage them to be much more consistent in terms of debt sustainability for these countries, but to avoid to finance nonclient activities with our own strategies. we want them to be much more involved in developing renewables and sustainable activities instead of helping them to develop new coal plants or coal activities. on this issue, i'm reasonably confident we can have china signing new commitments. >> finally, mr. president, china is the number one emitter.

of course, the united states, who's also going to be involved in the planning for the summit, is the second largest emitter of greenhouse gasses and historically at the top of any list. is the united states doing enough right now to cut emissions to help fund the desperate needs of the global south and to move toward a cleaner economy? >> look, i think the u.s. is engaged today in a very ambitious and efficient way to deliver. president biden is very much involved in this green technology and green industry strategy. so i think the u.s. as an economy has a very clear road map and very efficient road map.

we want to be sure we manage to have a sin -- i think this strategy is a very smart and efficient one. we want to be sure that all together we invest much more toward poor, developing and emerging countries in order to help them. we're having the u.s. involved on the reform of the world bank. finalization of new instruments and new incentives and these innovations will be part of what we want to deliver for our summit in june. having the u.s. be much more involved is critical. finally, i think the more we can

have the u.s. working with china in such a road map will be very useful. as far as i'm concerned, one of my key objectives to have both the u.s. and china on board. if we want to win this battle for biodiversity, climate change and fighting against poverty, we need both the u.s. and china. >> president emanuel macron, thank you so much for being with us. we're grateful that you spent time with us to talk about climate change. we are certainly all looking forward to the summit this june. i'll be sitting down with you, i believe, for a more lengthy discussion. it's so great to have you >> thank you very much to you, joe.

thank you to everyone. thank you to the whole community. inspiring people is extremely important to mobilize everyone. thank you so much. >> thank you, mr. president. [ applause ] >> and now, mika, you can go back to talking about tucker carlson. [ laughter ] >> we're good. joe, thank you very much. great interview with the french president for global citizen now. we'll be right back with much more "morning joe."

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welcome back, time now for a quick look at the morning papers. we begin in indiana where the "indianapolis star" reports state lawmakers have approved a bill banning certain books from libraries. under the measure schools cannot give out books deemed obscene or harmful to minors. any librarian found in violation could be charged with a felony that carries a maximum sentence of 2.5 years in jail. the bill now goes to the governor's desk. in new york "the star gazette" has a front page feature on lawmakers proposing a bill that would require drug manufacturers to warn customers if the cost of their prescription medication changes. companies would have to give at least 60 days notice if the drug price goes up by more than 10% and explain the reason behind the price hike. the rule would cover any medication that costs more than $40. and the post crescent

reports wisconsin lawmakers want to impose a curfew on kids' social media accounts. the republican-backed legislation would require companies to restrict minors from going on apps like tiktok and instagram between 10:00 p.m. and 7:00 a.m. supporters say this could help protect children from the harms of social media and staying up late, late, late at night. coming up, the quick action of a seventh grader in michigan has many this morning calling him a hero. we'll have the details and the video next on "morning joe." ♪ the thought of getting screened ♪ ♪ for colon cancer made me queasy. ♪ ♪ but now i've found a way that's right for me. ♪ ♪ feels more easy. ♪ ♪ my doc and i agreed. ♪ ♪ i pick the time. ♪ ♪ today's a good day. ♪ ♪ i screened with cologuard and did it my way! ♪ cologuard is a one-of-a kind way to screen for colon cancer that's effective and non-invasive. it's for people 45 plus at average risk, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur.

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now to the heroic actions of one seventh grader in michigan. on wednesday 13-year-old dylan reeves safely brought his school bus to a stop after the driver lost consciousness. take a look. >> someone call 911 now. someone call 911.

>> what a good boy. dylan was praised for his actions yesterday in a ceremony by the entire school district, and he really kept his cool, jonathan lemire. i know you have two boys, and just what a terrible position those kids were in, and i hope the driver's okay, but he did such a good job, really incredible. >> that was really remarkable. it took my breath away. dylan, how calm he was, how he immediately jumped up and not only stopped the bus but had the presence of mind and knew the driver needed help and asked someone to call 911. yeah, i have two young boys. i hope they would rise to the moment too. what a wonderful way to end the week, mika, and attaboy, dylan, attaboy. >> in fact, we'll let that be the last word of the week. it's all about dylan, and we love our kids, and he gives us hope. that does it for us this

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